OldSolduer
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The best thing that can be said about winter ops is that Winter is a great equalizer. Everyone, friendly and enemy, are subject to the ravages of winter.
CLS: From Arid CADPAT to Snowshoes
- Thread starter The Bread Guy
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It doesn't necessarily have to....Arsenal said:
http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/84292.0
http://www.army.forces.gc.ca/land-terre/news-nouvelles/story-reportage-eng.asp?id=3500
http://www.forces.gc.ca/site/commun/ml-fe/article-eng.asp?id=6056
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daftandbarmy said:
I couldn't agree more. I think we are going to reap exactly what we have sown wrt the reduced amount of hands-on training that many tech trades have gotten for a few years. I am not very confident that many on the EME side will still have enough of a solid troubleshooting background.
As pbi noted, working on a genny with an air-lock is one thing...working on a frozen genny with an air-lock, with waxy fuel, with frozen fingers under red-light conditions is another thing all together.
Every generator type (and heater for that matter) I have ever worked on has frozen up at one time or another (mechanics gloves are a gift from heaven as far as I am concerned).
That old '54 skid-mounted Cat genny we had at 1 VP ran like gangbusters every Ex, even in the winter, but even it went down occasionally, and it had no electronic controls to freeze up.
That all being said, it doesn't take long for troops to pick up the necessary skills. I saw one tent fire, very early in my career, got frost bite my 1st winter ex. These are memories that tend to stick in your mind.
Wook
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On receiving my parchment the first thing my CO said to me was "time to head to the mess".
The second thing he said to me, after pouring the beer I had just bought him over my single stripe, was "As the only uninterested officer in the unit I need you conduct an inquiry into why one of Her Majesty's Tents disappeared in a puff of smoke on our last Winter Indoc exercise".
If anyone needs a copy of 1 PPCLI's Winter Warfare SOP Aide Memoire, circa 1980 and suitably annotated for the Calgary Highlanders please send beer and I can put you in touch with one.
As I recall the outcome of the Inquiry was the recommendation to lay charges - "Conduct prejudicial to the maintenance of good order and discipline" - suitably filed and never acted on.
The second thing he said to me, after pouring the beer I had just bought him over my single stripe, was "As the only uninterested officer in the unit I need you conduct an inquiry into why one of Her Majesty's Tents disappeared in a puff of smoke on our last Winter Indoc exercise".
If anyone needs a copy of 1 PPCLI's Winter Warfare SOP Aide Memoire, circa 1980 and suitably annotated for the Calgary Highlanders please send beer and I can put you in touch with one.
As I recall the outcome of the Inquiry was the recommendation to lay charges - "Conduct prejudicial to the maintenance of good order and discipline" - suitably filed and never acted on.
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Having read this thread I was jolted back to my time "playing soldier" and it prompted this:
A few Winter Indoctrination observations from a MITCP officer.
1. It is dark at night and nights are very long in the Winter.
2. It is important to memorize trivia such as the relative positions of Safe, Fire and Automatic (Or was that Full, Safe and Automatic?) on the FN C1A1 because of point 1.
3. Squeezing the trigger while a blank round is in the chamber and the magazine is loaded is a reliable and effective method of determining the answer to the conundrum at point 2.
4. CO’s and fellow soldiers tend to take a dim view of solution at point 3.
5. See point one.
6. It is very difficult to find the trigger group spring assembly of an FNC1 in a snow bank after conducting an indepth, “inspection” of one of your soldier’s FNs in the conditions described in points 1 and 5.
7. Loss of said spring assembly, and rendering one of Her Majesty’s Rifles N/S does not endear you to your chain of command and generates lots of paperwork.
8. Paperwork resulting from loss of said spring assembly can be drastically reduced by having a quiet conversation with a co-operative unit armourer.
9. Paperwork can be further reduced by ensuring that the event happens on an exercise where your OC c*cks-up worse than you.
10. It is possible to unditch an MLVW with an axe after it has slid off an inclined skating rink cleverly camouflaged as a mountain road.
11. It is not necessary to carry chains, shackles, come-alongs, sledges, picks or straps on Winter Exercises. See point 10.
12. Having your OC and OPI-Ex bottle with the only MLVW in the packet with a winch, while declaring he has important stuff to do back at the armouries and will send help encourages innovation. See point 10 again.
13. Radios with long range and someone manning a base station during an exercise are surplus to requirement. See point 12.
14. It is very peaceful and warm lying in a snowdrift in the dark enjoying the night sky at 20 below in your issue gear beyond the tent line during a break in the training plan.
15. Regardless of where you are your troops will find you.
16. Opportunities for impromptu astral navigation courses (dippers and north stars, hunters and bears) present themselves in the most unexpected times. Discussions of night vision, rods and cones and constellations that can only be seen when you don’t look at them, follow.
17. Planning such exercises at Sarcee will inevitably be for naught as sky glow from the city on a cloudy night with snow on the ground makes it impossible to see the sky at all.
18. Further to point 17, on the plus side conditions above made it easier to read maps and navigate at midnight than it was on in the fog on Shirley Road at midday.
19. Knee high snow with an ice crust means that that review of your OPs around that bluff at Dundurn that took 20 minutes in the summer takes over 2 hours.
20. Always remember the password. See point 19.
21. After training to combat HYPO-thermia your will discover that HYPER-thermia is the real problem when a keen young soldier on his first exercise, impressed with all his warm new gear, wears it all and has it all zipped up and buttoned up, and wanting to impress is allowed by his section leader to stay in the traces hauling the toboggan up the road referenced in point 10.
22. The young soldier’s enthusiasm will only become apparent when he drops in harness and falls into a “heat stroke induced” coma.
23. You will thank God for a real ambulance with real live medics on the exercise. See point 22.
24. Carrying spare, non-issue “survival” items, knives, ropes, carabineers etc will improve your chances of following the young soldier into the ambulance.
25. You will never have enough water at 40 below.
26. Take whatever opportunity you can to rest and you might be able to avoid repeating these learning experiences.
27. It is easier to learn in a nice, warm, comfy, quiet classroom from a boring instructor than it is to learn in a snowdrift from a cold, tired, angry one.
These are some of the lessons I learned on various exercises. But the most important ones I learned were about the value of letting people learn, about preparing to fix the mistakes they make while they are learning, and, for those in command, the importance of being constantly aware during planning that those are real live people’s lives you are gambling with, even during training.
It is a wonder that the CF and the Calg Highrs survived me, and they are better served by my absence, but I thank both for what they taught me during all those exercises freezing appurtenances off and learning tent routine.
A few Winter Indoctrination observations from a MITCP officer.
1. It is dark at night and nights are very long in the Winter.
2. It is important to memorize trivia such as the relative positions of Safe, Fire and Automatic (Or was that Full, Safe and Automatic?) on the FN C1A1 because of point 1.
3. Squeezing the trigger while a blank round is in the chamber and the magazine is loaded is a reliable and effective method of determining the answer to the conundrum at point 2.
4. CO’s and fellow soldiers tend to take a dim view of solution at point 3.
5. See point one.
6. It is very difficult to find the trigger group spring assembly of an FNC1 in a snow bank after conducting an indepth, “inspection” of one of your soldier’s FNs in the conditions described in points 1 and 5.
7. Loss of said spring assembly, and rendering one of Her Majesty’s Rifles N/S does not endear you to your chain of command and generates lots of paperwork.
8. Paperwork resulting from loss of said spring assembly can be drastically reduced by having a quiet conversation with a co-operative unit armourer.
9. Paperwork can be further reduced by ensuring that the event happens on an exercise where your OC c*cks-up worse than you.
10. It is possible to unditch an MLVW with an axe after it has slid off an inclined skating rink cleverly camouflaged as a mountain road.
11. It is not necessary to carry chains, shackles, come-alongs, sledges, picks or straps on Winter Exercises. See point 10.
12. Having your OC and OPI-Ex bottle with the only MLVW in the packet with a winch, while declaring he has important stuff to do back at the armouries and will send help encourages innovation. See point 10 again.
13. Radios with long range and someone manning a base station during an exercise are surplus to requirement. See point 12.
14. It is very peaceful and warm lying in a snowdrift in the dark enjoying the night sky at 20 below in your issue gear beyond the tent line during a break in the training plan.
15. Regardless of where you are your troops will find you.
16. Opportunities for impromptu astral navigation courses (dippers and north stars, hunters and bears) present themselves in the most unexpected times. Discussions of night vision, rods and cones and constellations that can only be seen when you don’t look at them, follow.
17. Planning such exercises at Sarcee will inevitably be for naught as sky glow from the city on a cloudy night with snow on the ground makes it impossible to see the sky at all.
18. Further to point 17, on the plus side conditions above made it easier to read maps and navigate at midnight than it was on in the fog on Shirley Road at midday.
19. Knee high snow with an ice crust means that that review of your OPs around that bluff at Dundurn that took 20 minutes in the summer takes over 2 hours.
20. Always remember the password. See point 19.
21. After training to combat HYPO-thermia your will discover that HYPER-thermia is the real problem when a keen young soldier on his first exercise, impressed with all his warm new gear, wears it all and has it all zipped up and buttoned up, and wanting to impress is allowed by his section leader to stay in the traces hauling the toboggan up the road referenced in point 10.
22. The young soldier’s enthusiasm will only become apparent when he drops in harness and falls into a “heat stroke induced” coma.
23. You will thank God for a real ambulance with real live medics on the exercise. See point 22.
24. Carrying spare, non-issue “survival” items, knives, ropes, carabineers etc will improve your chances of following the young soldier into the ambulance.
25. You will never have enough water at 40 below.
26. Take whatever opportunity you can to rest and you might be able to avoid repeating these learning experiences.
27. It is easier to learn in a nice, warm, comfy, quiet classroom from a boring instructor than it is to learn in a snowdrift from a cold, tired, angry one.
These are some of the lessons I learned on various exercises. But the most important ones I learned were about the value of letting people learn, about preparing to fix the mistakes they make while they are learning, and, for those in command, the importance of being constantly aware during planning that those are real live people’s lives you are gambling with, even during training.
It is a wonder that the CF and the Calg Highrs survived me, and they are better served by my absence, but I thank both for what they taught me during all those exercises freezing appurtenances off and learning tent routine.
Lets not kid ourselves...Arctic Operations are not going to prevent massive retention issues post Afghanistan. There are large amounts of soldiers who, in the last 5 years, joined the CF for one reason...KANDAHAR. Everyone wanted their go at the enemy, to say they had the stones, win VCs, whatever. SOVOPS are not going to make those guys and girls stay in, no matter what.
I have said before that retention is our next battle. How do we keep soldiers in the CF? After talking with some Ptes and Cpls and even junior MCpls, having them freeze their junk off up north is not the way to do it.
And it's not just the bloody freezing temps that make them turn away. For those that have deployed their is the dread of post war boredom, the post tour blues. I had the post tour blues really bad this year when i went back to 1VP this year after 10 months in theater last year. Especially with being in the rear party for that unit. (luckily I am fortunate enough to learn french for a year now...I think lucky is the word). No matter how exciting you make the training, it simply is not going to be as exciting as a fire-fight, and that is going to be a huge transition for some people.
I have said before that retention is our next battle. How do we keep soldiers in the CF? After talking with some Ptes and Cpls and even junior MCpls, having them freeze their junk off up north is not the way to do it.
And it's not just the bloody freezing temps that make them turn away. For those that have deployed their is the dread of post war boredom, the post tour blues. I had the post tour blues really bad this year when i went back to 1VP this year after 10 months in theater last year. Especially with being in the rear party for that unit. (luckily I am fortunate enough to learn french for a year now...I think lucky is the word). No matter how exciting you make the training, it simply is not going to be as exciting as a fire-fight, and that is going to be a huge transition for some people.
OldSolduer
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And we all know what the post war will bring. Retention issues? You bet we'll have em. And I agree, going to the Arctic or even Shilo isn't going to do anything.
We all know what the post deployment will bring:
1. Emergence of OSIs among all rank levels. This will be a HUGE issue;
2. Another issue is the "garatrooper" mentality. We MUST do all we can to prevent that. That mentality will drive people out, especially those that have "seen the elephant" so to speak.
We all know what the post deployment will bring:
1. Emergence of OSIs among all rank levels. This will be a HUGE issue;
2. Another issue is the "garatrooper" mentality. We MUST do all we can to prevent that. That mentality will drive people out, especially those that have "seen the elephant" so to speak.
A
aesop081
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Jim Seggie said:
and we must be careful what people consider "garatrooper" mentality.
OldSolduer
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bdave said:
Its someone, IMO, who enforces every little rule and regulation to the letter without regard how it affects his/her personnel. Now, I realize there is a need for discipline, and rules and regulations. I also recognize the need for some Drill and Ceremonial we've lacked the last few years....and I agree that operations take primacy.
The trick is to know when and where to bend the rules.
ArmyRick
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Personally from my expiriences (I served in the same Coy as Jim for awhile in 2VP) I would offer this. With the wind down (potentially) of operations in A-stan (Just remember, six months later we may be standing in some other place anywhere in the world), here is my ideas for Infantry (Speaking as one)
-Keep troops busy (NOT insanely busy) with productive training (PCF cycle, career courses) and interesting training (Beleive it or not, but alot of dudes enjoy a trip to the arctic for a sov ex plus the rangers can teach you cool stuff).
-When possible, try getting the troops on international exercises (Fort Irwin and Fort Polk are two good examples) I always found those to be a real blast
-Some may want to move on to other careers within the CF, I would hope their respective CoC support them fully
-For those that we can, advance their careers
So I guess basically we keep troops busy doing productive stuff but not "make work" projects. If troops are left to go stale, they will up and leave. Its a balance and it will take good leaders to know when and where to do what.
In the end, some will leave anyways, nothing can be done about that and its better if a soldier wants out to let him go.
Avoiding the Garatrooper mentality is a big one. I know exactly where Jim is coming from on this one.
I am basing this on MY expiriences so if you disagree, so be it.
-Keep troops busy (NOT insanely busy) with productive training (PCF cycle, career courses) and interesting training (Beleive it or not, but alot of dudes enjoy a trip to the arctic for a sov ex plus the rangers can teach you cool stuff).
-When possible, try getting the troops on international exercises (Fort Irwin and Fort Polk are two good examples) I always found those to be a real blast
-Some may want to move on to other careers within the CF, I would hope their respective CoC support them fully
-For those that we can, advance their careers
So I guess basically we keep troops busy doing productive stuff but not "make work" projects. If troops are left to go stale, they will up and leave. Its a balance and it will take good leaders to know when and where to do what.
In the end, some will leave anyways, nothing can be done about that and its better if a soldier wants out to let him go.
Avoiding the Garatrooper mentality is a big one. I know exactly where Jim is coming from on this one.
I am basing this on MY expiriences so if you disagree, so be it.
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Jim Seggie said:
Actually, from the original source: Bill Mauldin, who republished the 1944 cartoon in his 1945 book "Up Front":
daftandbarmy
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ArmyRick said:
I have to agree.
The British Army came and went from NI for decades, some of my peers completing up to 10-12 tours in less than 10 years (yes, that's more than one tour annually in some cases). The best thing for keeping people motivated was trying to keep up with an agressive and exciting, well organized and led, training plan. For example, I recall during my last tour, the almost constant circuit training going on for the post-tour battalion boxing competition. I even had patrol commanders, at the urging of the troops, leading longer and more difficult than normal patrols to build up their endurance!
OldSolduer
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ArmyRick can attest to this.
When we were in A Coy......the trg plan was unimaginitive. Referesher trg was conducted every day, same subjects every week. Sgts had NO input, and I don't think the WOs had much more. Troops hated being in A Coy.
When we were in A Coy......the trg plan was unimaginitive. Referesher trg was conducted every day, same subjects every week. Sgts had NO input, and I don't think the WOs had much more. Troops hated being in A Coy.
ArmyRick
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The best were the OC's inspections for living in pers by there beds at 0630 HRS, 1 hour before PT and no we did not f*ck up in anyway. Or the one fun week, we did approximately 4 or 5 full kit inspections, waiting for Brigadier general Jimmy Cox (comander 1 CMBG at the time) to come check us out.
YEEEEE HAWWWWWWWWWWW, Boy was that fun!
YEEEEE HAWWWWWWWWWWW, Boy was that fun!
OldSolduer
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ArmyRick said:
dangerboy said:
Yes we did. What did that do for retention?
But we digress....... ;D
Edited to add: We need one of these.
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While I accept that a number of "hostilities only" folks will pack it in after Afgh (like they always do after any war), Jim Seggie and others have pointed out what will really kill retention, Arctic jaunts or not: a drift back to the bad old days of uninspired routine, picking up cigarette butts, days spent playing cards, hanging out in the lines, or skiving off at 1500hrs because there is literally nothing to do. That, and bad training that is pitched at the wrong level and tries to do 100 things half-assedly instead of a few things well.
There are literally hundreds of important, useful and satisfying things that soldiers can train on (especially those of us lucky enough to be Inf-the skill range is so wide), and we have a generation of officers and NCOs who have not only served in combat but have seen some of the best training techniques the Army could offer, at all levels. IMHO we also need to start rebuilding things like Pioneers, Mortars and working on restoring a credible anti-armour capability to the Inf because, who knows what's next, or where, or against whom?
There is absolutely no excuse to slide back to the bad old days (and no, I don't consider reduced funding to be an excuse), but I fear that this is exactly what may happen. The observation that we need to listen to the NCOs and WOs (especially with Cbt experience) is vital: in my experience training at company level lived or died by the quality of NCO input, motivation and "buy in". The more the NCOs "owned" the training, the better it was for everybody, including them.
I hope we remember all this stuff. In a small Army like ours, our great treasure is our people, and right now I think we have the finest crew we have had in a very long time.
Cheers
There are literally hundreds of important, useful and satisfying things that soldiers can train on (especially those of us lucky enough to be Inf-the skill range is so wide), and we have a generation of officers and NCOs who have not only served in combat but have seen some of the best training techniques the Army could offer, at all levels. IMHO we also need to start rebuilding things like Pioneers, Mortars and working on restoring a credible anti-armour capability to the Inf because, who knows what's next, or where, or against whom?
There is absolutely no excuse to slide back to the bad old days (and no, I don't consider reduced funding to be an excuse), but I fear that this is exactly what may happen. The observation that we need to listen to the NCOs and WOs (especially with Cbt experience) is vital: in my experience training at company level lived or died by the quality of NCO input, motivation and "buy in". The more the NCOs "owned" the training, the better it was for everybody, including them.
I hope we remember all this stuff. In a small Army like ours, our great treasure is our people, and right now I think we have the finest crew we have had in a very long time.
Cheers
PPCLI Guy....I simply do not know the answers....if there even are answers. In my opinion we are all soldiers and we have a job to do and we better be damn well good and ready to do that. Those who find the 'non-war' times to be boring can easily put in their release and say good bye.
The obvious answer is money. Lots and lots of money. Does it work short term...Yes. Will it work long term....No. For years soldiers have talked about re-signing bonuses, and how they should be utilized. In some ways they work for the CF as humans are inherently greedy by nature and young soldiers rarely think long term. To offer a soldier a re-signing bonus of $5000 for three years will be applauded by all soldiers. They will re-sign, take the money, and then six months later when they money is gone they will be back at square one. So yes, short term (6months) we have happy soldiers committed to new contracts. Long term (6 months and longer) we have disgruntled soldiers, sans $5000, knowing that they owe another 2.5 years. Therefore, in my opinion, money is not the answer.
Pride. That may work. Soldiers are proud members of Canadian society. They have done wonderful and brave things in Afghanistan. They need to be able to get out amongst the public and tell their stories. Not in a sense of 'oh look at me I did this', but in a way that educates Canadians about the mission that they were part of. Educating Joe Public about the capabilities of our military. What we can do both within Canada and abroad. This should not be left purely to senior officers and the such. But Pte Bloggins who was at the sharp end. This may also serve a s a valuable recruiting tool. It may seem trivial, but little things like the cancellation of the Combat Action Badge can be enough to make a soldier consider his career with the CF. But it is the pettiness and internal bickering over why these things are canceled or not that really leaves a bad taste in the soldiers mouth. His dress uniform, with medals etc is his resume. It is a list of his achievements. It tells people what he has done and where he has been. Let it! And if some other guy or girl gets bent out of shape because of what he is wearing, too bad.
Postings. PLD and LDA are great things, but they have an adverse effect when a member is posted. If he was in 1VP in Edmonton, a Sgt is making about an extra $1000 a month with PLD and LDA. Post him to the infantry school and he loses that extra income that he has become accustomed to over the years, and it can be a big blow financially when it stops. Cancel the PLD and LDA and pay members the same across Canada, regardless of cost of living. If the member deploys to the field, then he gets field pay. It is the members responsibility, in conjunction with his chain of command and clerks, to ensure that the paperwork is done and the member is paid accordingly for the time spent in the field. Some good soldiers have become over reliant on these extra bonuses and the fear of not having them when posted is a huge concern.
Either way, we will lose people at all levels of rank and experience. There could be a million ways to keep them in or their could be none. Soldiers of all rank levels and trades should be actively involved in discussions on retention, not just senior positions. With so many people it is obvious that not all will be happy. Myself, I don't think it will be types or duration of training that will be the deal breaker, it will be the soldiers perception of their quality of life and how they are treated by both their chain of command and the Canadian public.
The obvious answer is money. Lots and lots of money. Does it work short term...Yes. Will it work long term....No. For years soldiers have talked about re-signing bonuses, and how they should be utilized. In some ways they work for the CF as humans are inherently greedy by nature and young soldiers rarely think long term. To offer a soldier a re-signing bonus of $5000 for three years will be applauded by all soldiers. They will re-sign, take the money, and then six months later when they money is gone they will be back at square one. So yes, short term (6months) we have happy soldiers committed to new contracts. Long term (6 months and longer) we have disgruntled soldiers, sans $5000, knowing that they owe another 2.5 years. Therefore, in my opinion, money is not the answer.
Pride. That may work. Soldiers are proud members of Canadian society. They have done wonderful and brave things in Afghanistan. They need to be able to get out amongst the public and tell their stories. Not in a sense of 'oh look at me I did this', but in a way that educates Canadians about the mission that they were part of. Educating Joe Public about the capabilities of our military. What we can do both within Canada and abroad. This should not be left purely to senior officers and the such. But Pte Bloggins who was at the sharp end. This may also serve a s a valuable recruiting tool. It may seem trivial, but little things like the cancellation of the Combat Action Badge can be enough to make a soldier consider his career with the CF. But it is the pettiness and internal bickering over why these things are canceled or not that really leaves a bad taste in the soldiers mouth. His dress uniform, with medals etc is his resume. It is a list of his achievements. It tells people what he has done and where he has been. Let it! And if some other guy or girl gets bent out of shape because of what he is wearing, too bad.
Postings. PLD and LDA are great things, but they have an adverse effect when a member is posted. If he was in 1VP in Edmonton, a Sgt is making about an extra $1000 a month with PLD and LDA. Post him to the infantry school and he loses that extra income that he has become accustomed to over the years, and it can be a big blow financially when it stops. Cancel the PLD and LDA and pay members the same across Canada, regardless of cost of living. If the member deploys to the field, then he gets field pay. It is the members responsibility, in conjunction with his chain of command and clerks, to ensure that the paperwork is done and the member is paid accordingly for the time spent in the field. Some good soldiers have become over reliant on these extra bonuses and the fear of not having them when posted is a huge concern.
Either way, we will lose people at all levels of rank and experience. There could be a million ways to keep them in or their could be none. Soldiers of all rank levels and trades should be actively involved in discussions on retention, not just senior positions. With so many people it is obvious that not all will be happy. Myself, I don't think it will be types or duration of training that will be the deal breaker, it will be the soldiers perception of their quality of life and how they are treated by both their chain of command and the Canadian public.
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