Class A service and AWOL

[ModlrMike]

... but I don't know why this function isn't just out-sourced to the commissionaires.

Because duty watch is a fundamental part of being a sailor, and if you can't develop a sense of conscientiousness on shore, you're not going to have it at sea, where the safety of the ship might rest on your actions. It doesn't matter what duties are performed, it's about reinforcing a pattern of behavior.

Anyhow, this has drifted way off course, so this is my last word on why we do duty watches. Suffice to say, it's part of being in the Navy.

 

[SupersonicMax]

Anyhow, this has drifted way off course, so this is my last word on why we do duty watches. Suffice to say, it's part of being in the Navy.

IMO, "because that's how we do it" isn't a good enough answer anymore when we are bleeding people.  Using the stick will not help.  We currently have all the reasons to revisit why we do things the way we do them.

 

[ModlrMike]

So that we are all reading from the same page, did the sailor miss the "regular parade" or the "admin night"?  If a regular parade night, did any other sailors not show up that particular evening?  How many of those other sailors are being considered for remedial measures?

Yes, he was not there on a night that he should have ordinarily been present. Lots of other sailors didn't show up, but then they did not have a specified duty assigned to them.

Okay, not wanting to sound like a barrack room lawyer (however, anticipating a barrack room lawyer's reasoning is sometimes a good thing) but, is your intention to find someway to punish the transgressor because this is a last straw WRT this sailor or is it more "pour encourager les autres"?  Don't answer that, else the offender if he visits this forum may be able to use your statement in a possible grievance.  I admit that my awareness of Naval Reserve culture is minimal and that such culture is likely much different from Militia Army Reserve Health Services Reserve culture.  Did the sailor in question violate a specific instruction (DAOD, CFAO, QR&O, Navy Orders, Unit Standing Orders, etc) when he did not show up or is the establishment of this "duty watch" something that just evolved organically to meet a perceived need?  Are there terms of reference for the duty that includes language that imposes a greater expectation or legal requirement to show up that exceeds current higher level regulations?

As FJAG pointed out upthread, the problem in the end is that while the member was subject to the CSD when the order was issued, he was not subject to it when the order was to be executed, and is therefore not culpable. I wager this is a familiar experience for many reserve units.

If the sailor, by not showing up for this particular parade night, was not much different than any (or a significant percentage of) other sailors, what makes his performance deficient to the point that remedial measures are required.

His absence imposed a burden on another unit member having to take his place. In addition, if folks are going to parade when they're not on Duty Watch, and then miss when they are, that sets a bad example, and is not a culture we want to have take root. The reserve may be a volunteer, volunteer service, but there is a reasonable exception that people are going to show up.

 

[kratz]

To combat the mirade of excuses... my NRDs published the Duty Watch 3+ or more weeks in advance. Followed up by the Divisional system confirming the member will be there, at least two weeks before the duty.

So, written, verbal and committed to the duty. If ithis sailor's situation was a  one off problem, I don't think you'd be asking here.

With Class A: proper documentation, correct follow through, effective supervision and policy appplied consistently. Then yes, the Command has options to ensure members report for duty.

 

[Eye In The Sky]

Yes, he was not there on a night that he should have ordinarily been present. Lots of other sailors didn't show up, but then they did not have a specified duty assigned to them.

If he/she did the same action as others (that being, not show up for a scheduled Cl A unit trg event), unless all the other people informed the superiors they would be absent from training, wouldn't they also be demonstrating the same conduct and/or performance deficiency?  If the mbr grieved it and it ended up at the FA, do you think it would stand an impartial review based on policy?

It comes across a little the reason to reprimand the mbr is actually to serve as a deterrent to stop others from also saying "F that" and not showing up for 'Cl A Duty Watch' more than it is to correct the mbr for not attending.  It's hard, of course, to get understand completely - only so much can be conveyed in a few forum posts, but the past few posts do lead me to lean a little in that direction.

You may have posted it earlier and I missed it;  what exactly are mbr's doing during this Duty Watch Cl A trg event?  I'm just curious if this is an unpopular task at the unit and there is a bit of the 'this isn't what I joined the reserves to do' attitude towards it at the unit. 

It is obvious you're not liking some of the feedback, but you did ask for thoughts and opinions.  :Tin-Foil-Hat:  I had no opinion either way about the RMs, but after reading the part in yellow above and below, my gut reaction was the intent (at least partially) of the RMs is to deter others;  I am not sure that is inline with the spirit/intent of the policy.

In addition, if folks are going to parade when they're not on Duty Watch, and then miss when they are, that sets a bad example, and is not a culture we want to have take root.

 

[mariomike]

Yes,
It's possible and been discussed on the site before.

For reference to the discussion,

Having gone down the "charging a Class B with AWOL" road several times (with several JAGs) it's pretty well impossible in all but the most blatant cases.  Try it sometimes and if you actually get one through to a conviction, give me the name of your JAG.

The issue of whether or not Class Bs could be charged for AWOL (considering the provisions of QR&O 102.01 (NDA 60(1) which limits when reservists are subject to the CSD) was a matter of debate within the branch and if I remember correctly now (this goes back to many years for my brain and the interpretations did change somewhat) was dependant on how the individual's Class B contract was written. One had to analyse if the individual came within the provisions of the QR&O at any given time. The problem here was not dumb lawyers, but supervisors who thought Class B's were liable just like regular force members when in fact the laws of Canada (NDA 60(1)) said otherwise. The NDA was never changed but I believe (but am not sure) that subsequent contracts were eventually standardized to provide greater certainty.

Cheers

A reservist on Class A service, who neglects or refuses to attend a particular training session is liable to be charged and brought for trial before a civilian court pursuant to s 294(1) of the NDA and, if found guilty, is liable to be fined a maximum of $25.00 (if an non commissioned member) and $50.00 (if an officer) for every day of training he fails or neglects to attend.

A reservist on Class B or C service would in a similar case most probably be liable to charges under the CSD because at the time they fail to attend they would most probably be subject to s 60(1)(c).

As I stated above, s 33(2)(a) of the NDA gives the chain of command the legal authority to order an individual to attend training (either Class A or B) within the limits laid down by QR&O 9.04(2).

The GiC has no application or role in the circumstances of training. s 31 has a completely different purpose.

:cheers:

etc...

 

[expwor]

Just a dumb question and going back to my Militia days (1979-1981) But are Reservists told when they join what their obligations are? Reason I ask after SRTP I decided to join. I knew (because I was told) that the obligation was one night a week and one weekend a month training. Nothing about duty watches. And in fairness never heard of anyone getting a duty watch. So are Reservists now told when they join that in addition to the one evening per week and one weekend a month they may pull a duty watch?
And if not isn't the Reserve unit obliged to tell a prospective Reservist what his/her obligations will be before he/she signs on the dotted line?
Again, just asking a question

Tom

 

[Oldgateboatdriver]

There has always been duty watches in the Naval Reserve Divisions. The units are treated as ships - not land bases - and onboard our ships in harbour, whether at night, week-end or during the work day, there is always a duty watch in function. That is just the way our working life is organized onboard a ship. Reserve Divisions copy that model to run their activities. That's all.

 

[expwor]

There has always been duty watches in the Naval Reserve Divisions. The units are treated as ships - not land bases - and onboard our ships in harbour, whether at night, week-end or during the work day, there is always a duty watch in function. That is just the way our working life is organized onboard a ship. Reserve Divisions copy that model to run their activities. That's all.

OK Thanks.  That does answer my question

Tom

 

[FJAG]

Just a dumb question and going back to my Militia days (1979-1981) But are Reservists told when they join what their obligations are? Reason I ask after SRTP I decided to join. I knew (because I was told) that the obligation was one night a week and one weekend a month training. Nothing about duty watches. And in fairness never heard of anyone getting a duty watch. So are Reservists now told when they join that in addition to the one evening per week and one weekend a month they may pull a duty watch?
And if not isn't the Reserve unit obliged to tell a prospective Reservist what his/her obligations will be before he/she signs on the dotted line?
Again, just asking a question

Tom

When a reservist joins his ultimate obligation is that he/she may be required to fight and possibly die for their country (see NDA s 33(1) http://laws-lois.justice.gc.ca/eng/acts/n-5/page-7.html#h-22). Everything else is small beer. There is no comprehensive list of what they can and cannot be required to do.

That said, it requires an order in council to activate reservists or reserve units. QR&O 9.04 is one such regulation which authorizes the making of orders requiring a reservist to attend "training". To the best of my knowledge there is no existing regulation to allow ordering them to provide security services, per se. I'll leave it to others (read that to mean a serving DJA or AJAG) to determine or argue as to whether or not the services being described here can be considered "training" within the meaning of QR&O 9.04 or any other regulation.

:cheers:

 

[expwor]

When a reservist joins his ultimate obligation is that he/she may be required to fight and possibly die for their country (see NDA s 33(1) http://laws-lois.justice.gc.ca/eng/acts/n-5/page-7.html#h-22). Everything else is small beer. There is no comprehensive list of what they can and cannot be required to do.

That said, it requires an order in council to activate reservists or reserve units. QR&O 9.04 is one such regulation which authorizes the making of orders requiring a reservist to attend "training". To the best of my knowledge there is no existing regulation to allow ordering them to provide security services, per se. I'll leave it to others (read that to mean a serving DJA or AJAG) to determine or argue as to whether or not the services being described here can be considered "training" within the meaning of QR&O 9.04 or any other regulation.

:cheers:

And Thank You Too.  Also answers my question

Tom

 

[meni0n]

What is the point of doing this duty during a parade night? Who secures the building for the rest of the week? Sounds like a case of "I had to do it in the Navy, now you have to do it". If I had to take come in and spend my time doing a useless duty instead of training during what little training days there are, I would rather spend my time more wisely like with my family.

The fact that you wanted to charge a class A reservist with AWOL for this shows what kind of leadership style you practice and I wouldn't be surprised if your attempt to punish the individual would have a counter productive effect on the group.

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[MARS]

It has been decade since I was in a NRD Command team, but during the daytime, with only, say, 11 people in the building from 0800-1600, evacuating the building in an emergency was simple and easily handled by whoever had that responsibility.

On an Admin night, with upwards of 80 people, or a Training Night, with easily double that many in the building, and 3 bars that were open, it required an actual team of people to perform an evacuation in the event of a fire or to deal with whatever other things happened.

Perhaps it is indeed a matter of "the Navy has always done it this way" and I am unsure as to how the other Elements run their show, but my NRD never had any of the fumble-fuck incidents that my neighbouring militia armouries did, with damage being done to the premises as a result of the bars being open and what I assume were less robust Duty Watches.

My 2 cents

 

[Jed]

Just an observation, IMO the CAF will continue to bleed people until you can put some of the fun back into being in the military. All work and no play make Jack and Jill dull boys and girls.

What with the politically correct and overly sensitive world that is constantly under public scrutiny, this is a very difficult goal to attain.

 

[ModlrMike]

The fact that you wanted to charge a class A reservist with AWOL for this shows what kind of leadership style you practice and I wouldn't be surprised if your attempt to punish the individual would have a counter productive effect on the group.

Don't mistake asking if one CAN do a thing, for WANTING to do said thing.

 

[CountDC]

Duty Watch on a stone frigate could also be viewed as training in prep for when the nav-res mbr goes onto a real ship. 

Think of it this way:

Navy - Duty Watch on a ship
Army - Sentry Duty in the field

Seems to me that both are important and good training. 

Part of the problem is that people tend to think of the stone frigate duty watch as equivalent to the army reserve duty/orderly Cpl/NCO/O that mainly seems to be there to look after the mess. 

 

[BDTyre]

I'm not sure how duty NCO has become such a big deal or so construed that we're talking about it being an additional duty above and beyond or instead of regular training. When acting as duty NCO in my unit you are duty for "two weeks." All this means that on two Wednesdays you wear the duty NCO brassard, report to the duty officer, wear your headdress in the mess and don't consume alcohol. You're required to stay in the mess until 0100 (or the last member leaves, whichever is first) at which point the duty O relieves you and you've made an extra half days pay. During the training night, you still participate in your regular training.

On the third Wednesday, you hand over everything to the incoming duty NCO. The only other time you would actually be required to work outside of your regular training nights would be events like Remembrance Day (at which you would be present any way) or any mess events.

If you can't commit, it is your responsibility to find a replacement otherwise you could face disciplinary action.

 

[Eye In The Sky]

If you can't commit, it is your responsibility to find a replacement otherwise you could face disciplinary action.

Isn't the part in yellow the original question/topic? 

 

[Eye In The Sky]

The fact that you wanted to charge a class A reservist with AWOL for this shows what kind of leadership style you practice and...

That's a little harsh, isn't it?  The OP has a situation ( someone decided to not do a duty considered normal in their unit, and there is likely a concern of "if Johny can do it and nothing happens, everyone will do it" ) and is asking for people's thoughts and opinions.  Assuming the OP is also a Cl A mbr, they don't necessarily have the time to dig thru numerous references or attend trg like the UDI/CL trg (some) AJAGs provide that some of us do (and get paid for it, because mine was just a normal work day).

That doesn't have to indicate a "leadership style", just a problem and limited options for a solution, IMO.

 

[meni0n]

You're right I might have been too harsh in drawing my opinion. I just despise the attitude that some people take with regards to reserves. People volontueer for this and also have primary careers along with family commitments. Threating people with charges or disciplinary measures is just absurd to me.

Especially with the attitude of "Well i sent him am email he better be there." or "You're on duty for the next two weeks and if you're busy you need to find a replacement."

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