CFRG and the broken recruiting system-Split

[Jarnhamar]

If she's serious, she demonstrates a fundamental misunderstanding of the staff effort (some may say churn) involved in sending the six pack out the door. It's more than just 6 pilots strapping in.

If it takes a week and several phone calls to reply an email I can only imagine how difficult sending jets somewhere would be.

(most of whom have had their fair share of time in a LAV turret / CLP / Sub / Cockpit / trauma bay)

"Most" seems hard to believe but I wouldn't know.

 

[Haggis]

Let me put my spin on this from nine years at NDHQ

After working in Ottawa, and seeing the hours that the senior staff put in (most some of whom have had their fair share of time in a LAV Grizzly turret / have spilled CLP on themselves / eaten a foot-long Sub / Cockpit of a CF101 ) 

I do take issue with the "inept flunkies" characterization.  Although there are many at NDHQ who are long and far removed from time on the sharp end of anything but a shrimp skewer, there are hundreds of folks, Regular Force, Primary Reserve, CIC/COATS and civilian, toiling long, hard hours in the place where initiative goes to die who are just as frustrated at the glacial pace of work within NDHQ.

 

[MilEME09]

Let me put my spin on this from nine years at NDHQ
I do take issue with the "inept flunkies" characterization.  Although there are many at NDHQ who are long and far removed from time on the sharp end of anything but a shrimp skewer, there are hundreds of folks, Regular Force, Primary Reserve, CIC/COATS and civilian, toiling long, hard hours in the place where initiative goes to die who are just as frustrated at the glacial pace of work within NDHQ.

So basically say we take a group of 100 personal at NDHQ, say 10-15 would be doing the majority of the work to make up for say half not doing anything constructive while the rest do the minimum?

 

[Edward Campbell]

The fact that one is working hard and working long hours does not mean that the work matters or needs to be done.

Twenty years ago there was a lot of wasted and unproductive work and some, too much, counter-productive work. The people doing the un and counter-productive work were, often, working hard ... but they were doing as much, or even more harm than good.

My guess is that not much has changed since I retired.

 

[Haggis]

The fact that one is working hard and working long hours does not mean that the work matters or needs to be done.

Twenty years ago there was a lot of wasted and unproductive work and some, too much, counter-productive work. The people doing the un and counter-productive work were, often, working hard ... but they were doing as much, or even more harm than good.

My guess is that not much has changed since I retired.

My guess is that your guess is a good guess.  A ton of work gets done at NDHQ every day.  A large amount of it goes to support the institutional needs of the CAF and the department and to meet the demands placed upon both by Parliament, Treasury Board, PWGSC, OGDs and legislation.  Those demands can be for equipment, infrastructure, personnel, money, information, facts and figures.  Only a small portion of what goes on in ANY national level headquarters actually directly supports the mission.

To re-state what I typed earlier, with a little more emphasis to bring out Edward's point more clearly:

"there are hundreds of folks, Regular Force, Primary Reserve, CIC/COATS and civilian, toiling long, hard hours in the place where initiative goes to die who are just as frustrated as the rest of us at the glacial pace of work within NDHQ. 

 

[FJAG]

The fact that one is working hard and working long hours does not mean that the work matters or needs to be done.

Twenty years ago there was a lot of wasted and unproductive work and some, too much, counter-productive work. The people doing the un and counter-productive work were, often, working hard ... but they were doing as much, or even more harm than good.

My guess is that not much has changed since I retired.

It hasn't as of four years ago when I retired and I'd put a lot of money on the fact that it hasn't as of today.

The issue that is at the heart of this story is that there have been many people within recruiting over the last twenty years who have been working hard. Despite there efforts however the system is irrevocably dysfunctional and needs to be overhauled from the ground up starting with a metric requiring that recruits are enrolled into the CF within a set time frame (and here I'm talking weeks, not months). We were able to achieve that in the days of carbon paper and Gestetners; it boggles the mind that it can't be done in the networked computer age.

As an aside, when a reporter as soldier-friendly as Christie has demonstrated herself as being, can't get an answer in the reasonable time lines she expressed then heads should roll--both high and low. My guess is that the military bureaucracy responsible for recruiting knows that it has no reasonable answers to give so would rather burn a good media contact than engage in a public debate about their ineptitude.

:facepalm:

 

[MilEME09]

Burn enough bridges and eventually you cant get out. If this keeps up this will snow ball for DND and lead to a much bigger issue, though maybe we need that to figure out why it takes an average of 10 months to recruit someone.

 

[PPCLI Guy]

So basically say we take a group of 100 personal at NDHQ, say 10-15 would be doing the majority of the work to make up for say half not doing anything constructive while the rest do the minimum?

Exactly like every single line unit, reg or res, Canadian or otherwise, that I have ever served in.

 

[Osotogari]

Perhaps, instead of worrying about who Ms Blatchford has inadvertently or purposefully insulted in her column, the real focus should be what is a problem which has existed for decades and is so pervasive and irretrievably broken.  Basically, no one can say what exactly is wrong with recruiting because no one can really say for certain how it actually works, apart from the fact that it doesn't, much less why it takes so long.  Not to mention the ongoing disdain and disinterest that the reserve component faces from recruiting for the reserve force. 
 
I don't know what is systematically wrong with recruiting, but one thing I can't see changing is the fact that the NCOs on recruit courses end up being the main screening mechanism. 

 

[MilEME09]

Exactly like every single line unit, reg or res, Canadian or otherwise, that I have ever served in.

Unfortunately I cannot disagree with that fact one bit

but one thing I can't see changing is the fact that the NCOs on recruit courses end up being the main screening mechanism. 

I see more and more recruits being pushed through to meet quota's or because some NCO doesn't want to do the paper work to fail a candidate then I should, I don't know how it is for the reg force but I see it heavily in the reserves which leads to career courses being the actual filter which wastes the army's money.

 

[OldSolduer]

Exactly like every single line unit, reg or res, Canadian or otherwise, that I have ever served in.

I agree with that.

 

[Phoenix80]

A great article by a good Canadian journalist. It's a sad state of affairs it seems. I e-mailed her to tell her about the lengthy process that some have to go through for various unnecessary reasons.

 

[George Wallace]

I see more and more recruits being pushed through to meet quota's or because some NCO doesn't want to do the paper work to fail a candidate then I should, I don't know how it is for the reg force but I see it heavily in the reserves which leads to career courses being the actual filter which wastes the army's money.

I can agree and disagree with your assessment.  It is next to impossible with current policies in some of the Schools, to fail students.  I have witnessed candidates on a couple of courses placed before a PRB more than once and still pass the crse; not due to the instructors not completing the proper documentation, but due to the PRB deciding to give them a second and third chance to pass.  End result was a Sgt and a Capt on two of these courses landed up passing, when perhaps they should have failed.  They no doubt went on to discredit the Branch/Corps on their next Postings and Operations (I know the Sgt did.).

 

[PuckChaser]

I e-mailed her to tell her about the lengthy process that some have to go through for various unnecessary reasons.

Using your vast experience in the CF recruiting system no doubt? Please go ahead and detail all those unnecessary reasons you emailed her about, so that when they show up in a news article we know where the misinformation came from.

 

[Journeyman]

Please go ahead and detail all those unnecessary reasons you emailed her about.....

                    :goodpost:

I was going to post the same thing, but since I'd already picked on him for his massive operational experience regarding General McCrystal,  :

.....I just gave it a pass.

 

[Colin Parkinson]

I see the massive amount of energy that goes into media response these days and not surprised at all, the vast number of hands and approvals to crawl up the line and rejigging by people that know little about the issue, which then causes it to go back to get re-clarified and then through legal and then to the MO hopefully in time. Also each MO are not equal, I seen responses to letters take a year to get through under one minister and the next MO office staff is sharp and on the ball and things work smoothly. It would be interesting to see how well the current Minister ran their office in the other ministries. I am glad see was blunt, to much farting around happens. Remember that story about how long a twitter response takes? The current information response system is broken and run by people that are completely risk adverse.

 

[Remius]

There is plenty wrong with the recruiting system.  The key is to know what is.  Applicants think that since their process was so long that it was problematic when in fact the reason it took so long is because the system worked the way it was supposed to in some/many cases.

The CF recruiting system isn't designed for the benefit of the applicant.  Applicants need to realise this.  The system has to benefit the organisation (the benefit for the applicant is a side effect of a beneficial system).

Right now the organisation is not benefiting.  The system is broken and needs an overhaul.

And I am speaking from extensive experience with the system.

 

[Colin Parkinson]

I know nada about the system or the issues, but I suspect triaging the current applicants, get the ones you want started, say no early on to the others. Yes you may get some losers and may miss some winners. Regional Depots where prospective recruits can be sent and "test driven" to determine whether they are worth keeping?

 

[dapaterson]

One issue she touched on in her article, lack of quota for Army Reserve units, is not a recruiting system issue.

Rather, quotas are now set by looking (nationally) at the strength of units.  So the many units that try to keep up appearances and fail to clean the books of those releasing in fact torpedo themselves; holding those who do not parade and participate means the unit will not get to recruit to fill the positions.

Having spent half a decade tracking Army Reserve numbers I regularly saw how many units held dozens of folks who did not parade for months on end - yet they never took the actions required to declare them NES.  Lazy unit personnel admin is a huge problem in many Army Reserve units, but it is rarely rectified by their chain of command.

 

[daftandbarmy]

One issue she touched on in her article, lack of quota for Army Reserve units, is not a recruiting system issue.

Rather, quotas are now set by looking (nationally) at the strength of units.  So the many units that try to keep up appearances and fail to clean the books of those releasing in fact torpedo themselves; holding those who do not parade and participate means the unit will not get to recruit to fill the positions.

Having spent half a decade tracking Army Reserve numbers I regularly saw how many units held dozens of folks who did not parade for months on end - yet they never took the actions required to declare them NES.  Lazy unit personnel admin is a huge problem in many Army Reserve units, but it is rarely rectified by their chain of command.

Hear hear  :nod: