CFRG and the broken recruiting system-Split

[Meridian]

Now, everyone knows that every government has at least some red tape.... 

My question here is, especially recruiting wise, why does it seemingly take so long for answers on just about anything recruiting wise?

Do other Forces face these same issues, or is this more of the same issue based on neglect from the Feds and not enough manpower/funds to support the recruiting/bureaucratic arm?

Example - I was looking at the Brit Army site the other day, and they mentioned they would ahve a full response to an application package for an oversees applicant within 6 weeks.

This seems rather fast in comparison to the CF... but maybe not?

For many frustrated by waiting for a simple answer.. why does it always seem to take weeks for someone to simply read two lines on a file and then say "yes, or no". (Obviously its not always this simple, but, for example).

Is it a lack of drive, or are we actually not having recruiting issues, but rather issues with the support echelons that prop up the recruiting front office?

 

[rmc22208]

Some insight from the external:
Reasons behind the infinite delays created by the red-tape"

1.  CFRG (the recruiting agency withing the CF), is working fullspin to meet an intake number of about 4400 people a year.  For some reason, beyond my pay scale, (actually, this could be explained by the military's short supply of MDs) the medical standards review board only has 2 medical officers, these are the only one with the delegate authority to "fit" people up in the system.  Enough said...

2.  Security clearance.  CSIS ( the sec clear people) his overrun by requests coming from everywhere, my Level II was up for renewal 7 months ago.... Still no answers.  Recruits needs at the very least an enhanced rel status and Level II is the standard sec clear for Officers.  More waiting....

3.  For officers the HR shop in Ottawa is also involved.  DMILC's (director of military careers)  This is a shop with 1 or 2 people per trade that administers qualified members.  For every trade, they must meet once or twice a year (frequency is trade specific) at CFRG HQ in Borden to select candidates within all the applicants.  If one applies for a trade that just proceeded with a board,  this person must wait at least 6 months before being selected.  Even more waiting...

4.  Re-enrollee and component transfer.  The archive guys, (or the reserve clerks for comp/trans) either at the National Library (5+ year since last day of service) or at DND archives must retrieve information and produce statement of previous services.  Hey what a surprise: more delays!!

These are the big 4, note that the medical gets complicated when people have conditions that requires the advice of external specialists.

In addition to all this current fuss about the system, here is a little "backgrounder" on the state of HR in the CF for the last 20 yrs or so...

An historical perspective:
-===-
Up to the late 90's the military had its own medical system of hospitals, with its own specials and the likes.  It was able to perform most of its medical on its own and thus didn't rely on the speed of external medical consultant to proceed with its recruiting.  When I walked into the recruiting center, I had 1 surgeon, 1 Medical Officer and 1 Medical Assistant waiting for me.  I was processed on the spot and the only thing remaining to the CFRG HQ people to do was to "approve" the paperwork.  I don't think they can afford this kind of thing these days.
-===-

Also, you have to put things in perspective.  The military, in the western world, is only starting to need 'fresh people".  In Canada, DND always had more people than they really needed up to a few years ago.  There was an Force Reduction Plan (FRP) in the early 80's and another one in the 90's, so the recruiting process when from "recruiting in mass" to "selecting a few". 

The culture of the entire recruiting system was most likely affected by these circumstances, just portrait the mindset of a recruiter at that time: "this year the FRP tells us to get ride of 2500 people, so we can't recruit much, in fact we don't need to put EFFORT  into recruiting at all, just the voluntary applications are going to be enough".  Now the ballgame is totally different, babyboomers are retiring soon, and the new world (dis)order just reminded us (just in case: the 9/11 thing...)  that, nations needs military forces to use when diplomacy fails.  It's going to take a while before we get to the level of military personnel that we were a decade or so ago.

Facts are there to support these mindsets, as an example the 1994 white paper calls for a reduction of the number of military bases by more than the 3rd of what we used to have.  Jee, we even got rid of CF Europe.  The recruiting systems was greatly affected by this, here is a table of the before/after the 90's FRP training facilities of the CF

Before FRPs  |  After

Recruit training:                |               

CFRS Cornwallis NS
ERFC Saint-Jean, QC              |CFLRS Saint-Jean, QC

Officer Training:            |

CMR Saint-Jean, QC      |        CFLRS Saint-Jean
RMC Kingston, ON                    RMC-CMR Kingston, ON
RRMC (Victoria) BC
CFOCS (C-Fox) Chilliwack  BC

And this is just the big picture, I haven't include the closure of "trade schools".  Just to give you an example, I was at CTC Gagetown in 1998, I trained as a Phase II - Combat Arms candidate.  Before that it used to be given only to infantry candidates, other trade schools had to give their own infantry training because the number of candidates was too high.  These days the same course is callled Common Army Phase, which includes most of the land officer trades.  Again these are facts illustrating the reduction in training capacity.

All in all, if the system can't train more than a certain amount of people within the same "training block", then recruiting centers despite all the good will they might have DO NOT have the explicit authority to hire people on a waiting list; the hiring must be done at the rate of the training process.  So guys like me, that are waiting to get in an engineering trade of the military, might get other offers (and they actually do get other offers...) in the mean time, and at some point,  won't have the luxury to "wait" for an answer.  Most people have financial obligations to meet.

These are my two cents on the status of the red tape, I hope it gives you a good overview of the reason behind all this delay.  Hopefully, at some point, there will be sufficient institutional will and leadership to reverse the steam and start pouring in candidates.

All in all, the process is much more elaborated than it really needs to be.  Apart from medical fitness, they isn't much else that should forbid the recruitment of well-motivated young and middle-age individual in the Military.

Don't get me wrong, I think 99% of the people in the recruiting systems do their utmost best with the means they have.  I think it's time to change to motto "do more with less" to "you want more, it's going to cost more...".

 

[Meridian]

im curious about the archival systems and all that.. It seems to put a HUGE damper on the entire military as a whole...

Is there any reason why none of this is computerized? Or is it at least Micro-fiched? 

I can only imagine going through paper copy after paper copy.......  and I know that DND uses SAP (2 systems, as I work as an SAP Analyst for a major govnt contractor) and Ive heard peoplesoft as well..

If the civilian side can use computers, why can't the military?

Granted, govnt implementations are always hugely horrendous, and people dispute the cost...

But would it not make more sense to have everything done via databases? A recruiter could just "call up" a record, rather than call over for a clerk to do it....  The clerks would still be necessary... so this isnt a steal-peoples-jobs thing....

I mean, I know the military loves signatures, but if the rest of the govnt can deal with an "electronic approval" or even printing it out and signing it and filing (for auditing purposes only)..............


And yes, the medical system does sound quite crazy, and as one of those 2 med officers, Id go nuts after seeing file after file all day.

 

[rmc22208]

I mean, I know the military loves signatures, but if the rest of the govnt can deal with an "electronic approval" or even printing it out and signing it and filing

The problem with "e-approval" is that is the non-repudiation of records.  There is nothing that replaices the paper-based signature for legal matters.  And you guess things like release and enrollment cannot be "e-approved", there is an entire legal framework behind the process.

In fact getting an information-system as productive as paper-based systems is still a research problem.  In short, no electornic IMS is perfect, so eventhough you'd remove (unlikely) all the legal constraints asking for a paper traces, there would still be glitches, hick-ups and "weird" things happening.  The RMS system just need more people, again, this does not sell really well these days at the gov't.

As for the archives, I don't know the details of functioning, but I know for a fact that they have to deal with other agencies than the recruitment.  It's not like archive clerks are waiting for CFRG's request, they got IATP (privacy/info act) requests, VAC's requests and other misc.  I wouldn't be surprised to see them as overwhelmed as the Medical Review people too. 

IN any case, if you are waiting to enroll, keep that part-time/full-time job of yours until you get an offer, cause it will take a while.

 

[Meridian]

Im expecting a lengthy wait for a VFS... cant start until the Res. Unit reopens in January however... no "real" rush, however, id like to be in for summer....


anyway, this was more about the system anyway...

Im not sure about the whole legality thing.

Again, I work with SAP, and audit/legally wise, signing authorities are a big thing for amounts that go much higher than even a million dollars, and all of these can be done through secure accounts.

Of course nothing is secure secure, but a signature can be forged too.. so...

This was more for arguments sake.

 

[kincanucks]

Hello,  For those of you who don't look at profiles, I am an officer working in recruiting and I have been on this site for quite a while trying to help where I can and as one person so eloquently put it "crap on some threads now and then".  If you have applied to the CF in the last few years you have probably had to fill out several surveys both in paper and electronic format so I apologize for asking you take another sort of survey.  The problem is that the results of those surveys are seldom seen by anyone besides the person who receives them so unfortunately we, the ones at the pointy end, don't get see where people are having problems, besides the more obvious ones, and we don't receive any feedback from you the applicant, except when you come and tell us.

So if you have applied in the last three years or so please take a moment to check off where you have applied and had problems and then post a few words about what that problem was and any other specifics you might want to add.  If you have dealt with a Detachment please indicate which one.  Please don't use this as personal rant about how the entire system has pissed you off because you were not accepted due to your asthma or because you have used Ecstasy and don't see what the problem is or you have not been in Canada for ten years, etc..  I want to hear about how long it took and why you think that was, how the CFRC/D screwed up and lost your information, how the staff was rude to you everytime you called, how they told you one thing and you found out that was total BS later, etc.

Now if you have applied and have nothing but praise for the CFRC/D that you have dealt with then I ask that you indicate that in the other poll that I am going to start.  Again tell me why it was such a pleasant experience.  I will take your information and put it some kind of presentable package and send it to the Commander of CFRG HQ because I know he would be very interested in what you have to say.  I thank you for your participation and as always if you have a question about the recruiting process please let me know.  Cheers.

 

[regulator12]

      I applied to Recruiting Center Kitchener. I reapplied September 2005. When I first went into the recruiting center the recruiters were polite and friendly. I completed the necessary paper work and scheduled my tests. I did my interview in Hamilton and my physical and medical in Kitchener.
   
      When I did my interview the officer in Hamilton had no access to my information from Kitchener. When i got back to Kitchener to do my medical and physical, the recruiting center had forgotten or did not know that I completed my interview in Hamilton. No communication between the two recruiting centers.
Next problem was communication to me. The recruiting center in Kitchener told me they would tell me when my VFS was complete. I never got a call from them updating me of that. I had called them only to find out that the VFS was done weeks ago. I was never kept up to date on the status on my file, even when I called, it was poor or they had no information.

      In January I was merit listed. The first week of January after Christmas leave I called the recruiting center everyday for that week because I had to sort out something with them that came back on my credit check. My calling there was not asking questions about my file but was giving them the information that they needed regarding my credit situation. SO it seems like a lot of calling but was justified by the fact that it was documents that they needed for my file and I was getting it and keeping them informed of my situation. The recruiting center told me not to call that many times and they told me that I could call them once a week to check to see if there was anything new. I apologized for calling them that week so much and I toned down my calling to once a week.

            Just this week when I called again, (it was a week) I called and asked a certain CPL who I dealt with if I was in fact merit listed and if my file was a OK. She told me that everything was OK and I was merit listed and I was suitable. 5 MINUTES later I got a call from DND, only to find out that on the other end was Captain NO NAME. He proceeded to reem me a new *** hole for the next 10 minutes as to why I called the recruiting center and why I am asking these questions. He questioned if I believe them or not, and demanded to know why I am calling and to stop calling. He went on to tell me to not expect a call and not put my life on hold, and that I am an administrative burden, he went on and on. I have a witness to this call and was very upset with it.

          I feel that was unprofessional and uncalled for. I don't see the justification in calling me and reeming me a new one when I have legitimate questions and concerns. Its not like they gave me up to date information from the start. I have been in the dark with a lot of aspects of this process and not given full details. I am taking it upon my self to keep my self informed because they sure don't and didn't. I did call again this week especially when he himself told me it OK TO CALL ONCE A WEEK. Ridiculous, I don't see the need if he is SOO BUSY TO CALL ME AT HOME AND ***** ME OUT FOR ASKING QUESTIONS. I did not call and harass them or yell at them or be rude to them or anything like that, I asked, "I just want to make sure that I was merit listed." "Yes, you are, you didn't believe me the first time?" she said. "OK thanks just wanted to make sure my file is OK." She told me no problems and she understands why i asked, and she jokingly said to me that when i do get a job offer that she won't call me for a week...haha we laughed and that was that. At no time was I rude. I guess i struck a nerve or something because that is when the Captain called me. ( I was excited for a second when i saw the call display, I thought "oh my its the call!!!!!" boy was i wrong!!!!)

          That is my biggest problem with my recruiting experience. It really gets to me that I am not even back into the army yet and i am getting jacked up for asking questins regarding my FUTURE......I am at the point were I don't want to deal with this kind of BS. The Captain in my opinion was unprofessional and was out of line.

 

[kincanucks]

regulator12 please try to use to paragraphs so that your post is easier to read and understand and please vote.

 

[dearryan]

This may be a specific issue to a certain member at the RC as opposed to the entire branch, however I have seen it complained about in other threads on this site. My issue with the RC is when a recruiter tells you, "you will know by the end of 2 weeks" or, " just wait another 2 weeks". I have heard that MANY times over my recruiting process. I do not like to call and pester the RC, and avoid it as much as possible (I just pester the Recruiter on this site ;D) However, when I do call them at the end of one of the "2 week" time frames, I am told to wait another two weeks. Come on. Nothing that I have ever been waiting for has ever come back when a recruiter tells me it would. In my opinion it makes them look un-professional.  It is fully understandable for members to give their educated guess as too how long processing takes, however if they don't know they should simply say they don't know. I personally have opted out of training (work), family commitments, and other employment all together due to what I am told by the person on the other end of that phone.

Other than the previously mentioned I have had nothing but good experiences with the RC staff at the Vancouver detachment.

Ryan

Hey Kincanucks when am I going to be selected????? ;D hahaha

 

[kincanucks]

In about 'two weeks'. ;D

 

[regulator12]

Dearryan.....Very good point. I just wanted to say that they tell you at the recruiting center not to put your life on hold, however its very hard not to when they give you information that suggests your getting somewhere. I know others who have had to turn down job opportunites or they did turn them down because they thought the army was going to call them soon. I would rather them say hey honestly we wont know anything for 2 months call us then. That would be better than leading us on every couple weeks or so.....Hey Kincanucks can i expect my call too in two weeks?????.... ;D ;D

 

[MikeL]

I've had my file handled by CFRC Vancouver an CFRC/D Edmonton. For the most part, my experiance has been really good. Only negatives is waiting a few weeks to a few months to get dates for the different tests. For my componet transfer, it took me something like 4 months to get CFAT, Physical an Medical done.  Part of the problem was waiting on my Reserve unit to send different files to the CFRC, but I had the same problem when I first applied to join the Reserve in '02.

Other thing, not something that has to do with a CFRC; for Sig Op the Selection board that selected me was held on January 9th, a week later I found out I got accepted an got RSBP. A month later an I'm still waiting, apparently theres other people looking at it now an doing a Prior Learning check? Apparently to say what qualifications I'm taking over to the Reg Force, even though I've been told my basic an driver quals will transfer over. For such a in-demand trade(sig op) it's taking quite awhile to get in. Kinda annoying when I'm told I could get my job offer any day an its being dragged on.. Especially since I started my transfer in November '04.


One other problem/hassle, it seemed like most of the times I called CFRC Vancouver no one picked up the phone, an they rarely return messages.



A better system would be to copy the Americans, since it seems to be a lot quicker. You do all your tests in 1-2 days. An it takes about 2-4 weeks for a Reservist/National Guard too transfer to Active Duty.

 

[Stauds]

Well.. where to start??

I will start with the good, my file manager, Cpl X was very good. He was very nice, went out of his way to see how I was doing and check on the progress of my file, even if it was nothing more than "It's on track.." The people at the CFRC Edmonton were very helpful and nice for the most part.

I'll start at the beginning. When I first applied for RMC, my application went well, within a month I had done almost everything, from the medical to the CFAT to the interview. I was turned down from RMC, so later on I decided to apply for the reserves for the duration of University which I started next year. 4 MONTHS after my medical I recieved a letter saying I wasn't suitable for employment in the CF, due to an error in the urine test, which was caused by my taking protein supplements. I had another test done, and sent the results in, and 2 MORE MONTHS passed before I recieved a letter saying I wasn't eligible because of Osgood Schlatter's in my knees. I can understand a delay of a month or so for the medical to go through the boards in Ontario, but 3.5 months before I hear from them the first time? Even if they found that error after I applied for the reserves in Mar. '05, that still meant almost 2 months before I heard from them.

When I sent the letter from my doctor saying I was done with OS, it did not take them long to clear me for the medical.. which was the complete opposite of what I had experienced earlier, so I am happy with that. That was in November '05.

The other parts of my application for Reg. 031 went well, except for my ERC. It's not a huge issue, but the CFRC had to wait almost 3 weeks to book my interview because they were waiting for the ERC. Again, not too big of a deal, but would it be possible for the ERC check to be verified with an email saying "yes, xxx xxxxxxx passed the ERC" so they can book an interview, then later on recieve the letter??

Finally, I was merit listed Jan. 19, the officer who interviewed me told me I can expect a call within 3 weeks, and that I was a very competitive applicant. I still haven't been called, and it's been exactly three weeks since my interview. My friend had his interview in November and was called in 3 business days.. I don't know what the delay for me is, and when I called last friday, I was told "I missed the Feb 1 selection, but my file was on track and I can expect a call 'soon'". I will call again tomorrow to ask if everything is alright, and if they know what might be delaying it. But it would be nice to have an accurate picture of when I'm getting called, because I'm now out of money, and I have to get a job.. but what am I supposed to tell the employer? "I could be leaving in a couple weeks, but would you like to hire me?" It's just getting very frustrating and I would appreciate them telling me what's taking so long.

Other than those issues though, I was very satisfied with the treatment I recieved from the CFRC staff.

 

[Guy. E]

if this is going to make some changes, i think that i should make some comments about my experiences about the Winnipeg CFRC.

i have been there 3 times in the last 2.5 years.

I have had a generally "good" experience for the most part. however with the exceptions of this.

i was called two weeks ago to go finish my testing. because i only had only my PT and interview to complete i deemed a night in Winnipeg was not required (my discression, save the govt a few dollars...) i had a scheduled time to be there at 10 am (i live about 20 min south of Brandon Mb (brandons 2 hours west)). i was there at 9:30 (time appreciation) to my dismay i was waiting there an extra 45 min on top on what i was early. thats right, i was sitting there watching Mr Priminister Harper getting sworn in on TV until 10:45 before i actually did anything.

another thing i noticed was there was a navy guy there. it seemed his job was solely to hold the font desk up by leaning on it and have a firm grip on his coffee cup. he just leaned there holding his cup talking. in the 4.5 hours i was there, thats all he did.

i particularly felt insulted that they're time appreciation was so off and that they had enough spare time to stand there talking wile I'm sure theres more important things to be doing or found to be done. what does a navy cpl get payed per year to do nothing? i might think about that job.

that could be why almost every time i called on the phone to ask a question i had a stupid answering machine... ( i hate those things)  sometimes understandably only about 1/4 of the time i actually speak to a person.

another comment, what is quitting time at CFRC Winnipeg? i have called at around 4 or a little later and not a soul in the building. (thats not on a Friday...) so i need to waite the whole weekend to get my question answered or whatever needs done, done.

one more thing, just last week i was called and told that i needed some old cadet paperwork (i am getting it tomorrow night). when asking why they didn't ask me before, they said it was already requested...

i was thinking about making a phone call or writing a letter to someone involved in recruiting,. but since this thread is here, i will use it.

i hope this helps.

Edward Guy

 

[DJ]

There were a plethora of issues with my application.  The biggest problem was with communication.  I applied during a recruiting freeze and couldn't get ahold of anybody in regards to the freeze because CFRC Vancouver was moving.  I tried to talk to CFRC Victoria but they replied that they couldn't help me at all because I was the responsibility of CFRC Vancouver.  Nobody contacted me when the freeze was over; I found out for myself when I showed up at CFRC Vancouver to investigate.  In my opinion, this was more of a problem with the specific unit's recruiting. 
I was later scheduled for my CFAT and medical.  On that day I managed to finish the CFAT however the medical was cancelled.  I was given a card and told to call back at x time on x day the next week.  Well, I called, (..and called...and called).  I kept getting a machine and kept leaving messages.  I called at that x time on x day for the next few weeks.  Eventually, the school year was over and I went back to the island to find work.  I kept calling and leaving messages but no response.  Finally, uber-frustrated I called and left a rather frank, not-quite but almost impolite message.  Bingo.  Less than 12 hours later there was a message on my machine asking about setting up my medical and physical. 

This is just a tiny segment of my recruitment saga. (Applied Sept 2002.  Enrolled July 2004). However, I think that the communication problems can be easily- given the resources- addressed.  Perhaps there should be more emphasis on returning messages.  Also, when a recruit is told to call a number there should be a person available to take that call. 

One more thing that I found asinine was when I was forced to get all new documents (reference letters, transcripts, eyeglass prescriptions) due to the fact that mine had all expired due to these stalls in my application.  While I understand that the CF should have the most current information it was just one more kick during a rather brutal application process.  From what I've read, this is being alleviated with the shorter timeframe being experienced by new recruits. 


Note:  I experienced none of these problems with my current unit. 

All the power to you Kincanucks in producing any improvements.
Apologies if any rants persisted...this was truly an exercise in editing!

 

[Stauds]

I couldn't edit my old post for some reason...

When I called in last friday, I had been merit listed for over 3 weeks; I got a hassled a little about why I was calling, but that was just "teasing". The woman checked my file, and found it was CLOSED! For some reason it had to do with me only having one trade (infantry). I don't know, but she said she fixed it and I should get a call this week... I find it very frustrating having to wait this long, only to have been told my file was closed. If they actually had a valid reason to close my file, I think it would have been appropriate to notify me so I can look at other options. If I hadn't called I would have been left in the cold indefinitely...

 

[kincanucks]

The purpose of this thread is not for you to pose questions about your process or to report on your progress  but to report on your experiences with the system.  Find another thread for your questions.

 

[MdB]

First of all, my application went fairly smoothly.

Like it's been said, often communication can be a problem. It's weird how CFRC works for multiple tests appointments. To this day, I really don't know what the order is (if there's any, and seems to have changed lately). The last I saw is CFAT, ERC, Medical, Interview, Physical, which makes sense.

My main point would be that: CFRCs have to be more PROACTIVE. At no moment I sensed the CFRC (or the CF they are representing) felt eager to recruit me. I just think they didn't put that in their heads: they are on recruiting market and it's aggressive. If they are to put 5k (or 20k for that matter) more in the CF, they're gonna have to change their attitude. It doesn't have to be the recruit who's gotta be ahead of his things. I deeply think the CF lose MANY candidates simply because of delays and miscommunications (or none...).

That's it for me.

 

[Private Parts]

I wouldn't describe my experience as "nothing but problems"; however, I had a couple of negative experiences at CFRC Halifax - I was given some very bad (i.e. incorrect) information by a medic (WO Nameless) and was, on one occasion, treated very rudely by a recruiter (Sgt. Nameless)

Having said that, my recruiting experience took about 8-9 months and I have been asked - more than once - who I bribed to get in so quickly.

 

[kincanucks]

Bump