CF Members and time alloted for PT

[Chilme]

It is unfortunate that the EXPRES test/20 MSR get such a bad reputation as a fitness evaluation.  The reality is that it is a very good general fitness test (It is not a specific test like the BFT).  Consider the following:

1)  The 20MSR is a measure of VO2 max.  VO2 max is the maximum amount of oxygen one can consume relative to their body.  In simple terms it is your aerobic capacity or aerobic potential.  A good analogy would be the compare VO2 to the Horse Power of an engine.  The higher the HP, the more work an engine can produce.  Similarly, the higher ones VO2 max is, the more physical work they can do.

2)  During the original studies conducted by Leger et al. back in the 80's showed that, with a large sample population, the 20MSR acheived 97% accuracy in predicting ones actual VO2 max.  Basically they compared the stage participants ran to, to their actual laboratory calculated VO2 max. This is a very strong correlation when compared to other test like the Step Test that only shows 68% accuracy in predicting VO2max.

3)  In May 2010 I personally validated this.  I conducted the 20MSR to max effort and it was determined that my VO2 max was 56.6 ml/kg/min.  One week later I had the opportunity to conduct a Laboratory VO2 max with a gas exchange monitor.  My VO@ max was determined to be 56.7ml/kg/min.  That is 99.8% accurate.  Pretty good test!

Do soldiers run back and forth 20m at a time on a daily basis? Probably not.  Are soldiers required to do work that involves an elevated/significant aerobic ability? ABSOLUTELY!

 

[PMedMoe]

My point is that the Expres Test favours certain body types that I don't fit into and it frustrates me.

I feel the same about the BFT.    :-\

 

[Pusser]

I feel the same about the BFT.    :-\

Fair point.

 

[ModlrMike]

It is unfortunate that the EXPRES test/20 MSR get such a bad reputation as a fitness evaluation.

I think the problem with reputation has more to do with the "culture of minimums" that the EXPRES is associated with. When you're told you only have to get to level "x", the natural human tendency is to stop there. AS designed, the 20MSR, and the rest of the EXPRES is a test of maximal fitness, you're supposed to go until you're exhausted. Anything less is an invalid result. Even attaining exemption that is less than your maximal effort is invalid, because it is not a true reflection of your level of fitness.

Too many evaluators are focusing on the minimum, instead of what the evaluation is designed to assess. We need to start emphasizing the maximal part, not the minimum part. PSP staff have to stop telling people what they have to get to, and tell them to keep going until they need to stop.

 

[dapaterson]

Too many evaluators are focusing on the minimum, instead of what the evaluation is designed to assess. We need to start emphasizing the maximal part, not the minimum part. PSP staff have to stop telling people what they have to get to, and tell them to keep going until they need to stop.

What, and abandon our culture of indifference, indolence and sloth?

 

[Chilme]

I think the problem with reputation has more to do with the "culture of minimums" that the EXPRES is associated with. When you're told you only have to get to level "x", the natural human tendency is to stop there. AS designed, the 20MSR, and the rest of the EXPRES is a test of maximal fitness, you're supposed to go until you're exhausted. Anything less is an invalid result. Even attaining exemption that is less than your maximal effort is invalid, because it is not a true reflection of your level of fitness.

Too many evaluators are focusing on the minimum, instead of what the evaluation is designed to assess. We need to start emphasizing the maximal part, not the minimum part. PSP staff have to stop telling people what they have to get to, and tell them to keep going until they need to stop.

I would have to completely disagree with you.  Evaluators are mandated to inform test participants of the CF minimum standards based on age and sex (or for specialty tests).  Too not provide this information is a disservice.  If PSP staff told participants to "run as long as you can and we'll tell you if you passed after", there would be a lot of problems. 

The scripts provided to all PSP staff indicate that all components of the test are maximal efforts as well as information on incentive standards.  If individual soldiers decide to stop at the minimum level/give the minimum effort, that is a decision made by the soldier himself.  Not PSP staff.  There is a certain percentage of people who will always do the minimum amount of work.  You can't blame PSP for individual soldiers lack of motivation or internal drive.   

 

[Halifax Tar]

I think were all forgetting that no matter what fitness test the CF puts out we are always going to have to have a minimum standard.

You have to have a bar from which to judge, a line in the sand if you will.

And no matter where we set that bar the middle 1/3'd will only strive to accomplish the minimum.

.....

 

[Task]

  You can't blame PSP for individual soldiers lack of motivation or internal drive. 

In part I can. Part of your job is fitness leadership, and motivating others is part of that. The initiative of the soldier can be blamed as well but as I said...

I remember this years test and the PSP staff telling me I only need x to pass. Take out "only" and the context and the message is starkly different.

The message must be consistent from the test, the environment and thru the chain. This is the minimum but you are expected to be a leader and push to your max.

 

[ArmyRick]

It was almost three years ago, we hammered a PAT soldier for doing the minimum to pass an express test. The direction from the CSM was to go for the highest score possible to see how fit a future infantry course would start out at.

One soldier hit the exact minimal standard and walked off the 20mSR. It was one of the incidents that was placed on his initial counselling for his overall lackluster attitude. Did anybody else notice that paragraph in the CDS guidance to COs to NOT turn a blind eye to obesity?

I would like to see that one happen more often instead of the "I won't say anything because they might file a complaint..." mentality.

I am in no way in favour of returning to BMI system because it really screwed athletic people (I almost failed BMI back in the day when I was highly athletically active).

 

[prima6]

I would have to completely disagree with you.  Evaluators are mandated to inform test participants of the CF minimum standards based on age and sex (or for specialty tests).  Too not provide this information is a disservice.  If PSP staff told participants to "run as long as you can and we'll tell you if you passed after", there would be a lot of problems. 

The scripts provided to all PSP staff indicate that all components of the test are maximal efforts as well as information on incentive standards.  If individual soldiers decide to stop at the minimum level/give the minimum effort, that is a decision made by the soldier himself.  Not PSP staff.  There is a certain percentage of people who will always do the minimum amount of work.  You can't blame PSP for individual soldiers lack of motivation or internal drive. 

Agreed, the PSP have to provide the minimum and incentive level for the test.

The only motivator for performance on the EXPRES test for most people is either to make the pass or to meet the incentive level in order to have 2 years before having to do the test again.  A few are motivated for the incentive level for promotion purposes, personal pride or because they're supposed to try as hard as possible, but they seem to be the exception.  I'm rarely motivated to max out on the 20 MSR.  I hit my 10.5 and since I usually have training later that day pushing myself harder just hurts my performance.

Rick, yeah the BMI system is pretty stupid.  I'm just over 30 (obese) at around 8% bf right now.

 

[Task]

Agreed, the PSP have to provide the minimum and incentive level for the test.

The only motivator for performance on the EXPRES test for most people is either to make the pass or to meet the incentive level in order to have 2 years before having to do the test again.  A few are motivated for the incentive level for promotion purposes, personal pride or because they're supposed to try as hard as possible, but they seem to be the exception.  I'm rarely motivated to max out on the 20 MSR.  I hit my 10.5 and since I usually have training later that day pushing myself harder just hurts my performance.

Rick, yeah the BMI system is pretty stupid.  I'm just over 30 (obese) at around 8% bf right now.

It saddens me to say but I think you are correct in your assumptions.

This is where the culture is wrong. If someone (not blaming you) as fit as you does not feel the pressure from the cultural environment to perform the best on the the test. Then how can we cure the lack of motivation in the general population (PT wise)?


I certainly have thought exactly the way you do about passing, knowing that I'll do a harder PT session later on my own. But the way I think now, is that pushing myself as hard as I can on the test, inspires those around me and I can do my hard workout tomorrow.

If they are inspired then they will do the same. Maybe a bit over the top philanthropy but, it all boils down to being a leader.

 

[Chilme]

In part I can. Part of your job is fitness leadership, and motivating others is part of that. The initiative of the soldier can be blamed as well but as I said...

I remember this years test and the PSP staff telling me I only need x to pass. Take out "only" and the context and the message is starkly different.

The message must be consistent from the test, the environment and thru the chain. This is the minimum but you are expected to be a leader and push to your max.

Actually, during a test PSP fitness leadership goes out the window.  Fitness staff are instructed to be, and should be, impartial 3rd parties.  This conduct is consistent across all fitness evaluations whether it is with the CF or in any other realm.

Unfortunately, whether "only" is i the language or not, many will still only strive for the minimum.  Same with those who only go for incentive and stop when its not their max.  Its the nature of a 1 pt or 2 pts on the PER system.  There's no external reward for going further, and those who are externally motivated will stick to the preset numbers.

During unit PT, PT classes, and personal training should be the fitness leadership

 

[Task]

Chilme,

I understand the need for for impartial testing. IMO in this specific case, I think it is better served if the PSP were allowed to continue to motivate (for the annual Express test). My reasoning is again culture. The annual test results being skewed (by people scoring higher) does not affect the outcome, you will pass or you won't. It will however give a consistent message to every person who does the test.

Devils advocate to my own opinion: It will not work without a culture shift outside the PSP sphere of influence.

 

[Chilme]

Task,

You're right.  A culture does need to happen with a number of units.  Many units are already there.  This influence will have to come from a combination of the limited PSP sphere of influence, the leadership, and individual soldiers who are passionate about fitness.  However, this culture change should and could really only effectively occur during the 364 days, 22 hours the CF personnel are not conducting their annual evaluation.

Agree to disagree?

 

[Task]

Task,

You're right.  A culture does need to happen with a number of units.  Many units are already there.  This influence will have to come from a combination of the limited PSP sphere of influence, the leadership, and individual soldiers who are passionate about fitness.  However, this culture change should and could really only effectively occur during the 364 days, 22 hours the CF personnel are not conducting their annual evaluation.

Agree to disagree?

I think agree more than agreeing to disagree