CF Members and time alloted for PT

[Stoker]

I was posted to a sea going unit for the last 15 years where we had very limited workout space or gear that had to serve 45 plus people . I found keeping fit a challenge at times,what do you in that case, especially when your posted to a unit that's at sea for sometimes over 150-160 days a year?
I agree that we have to maintain a standard of fittness but what do you when your denied the proper tools and time? I'm fortunate that i'm in a job now where I can take my one hour a day for PT and nobody is giving me any grief about it.

 

[Chilme]

I was posted to a sea going unit for the last 15 years where we had very limited workout space or gear that had to serve 45 plus people . I found keeping fit a challenge at times,what do you in that case, especially when your posted to a unit that's at sea for sometimes over 150-160 days a year?
I agree that we have to maintain a standard of fittness but what do you when your denied the proper tools and time? I'm fortunate that i'm in a job now where I can take my one hour a day for PT and nobody is giving me any grief about it.

I'm glad you mentioned this.  Obviously a common navy problem.  It just takes some creativity.  Consider the following:

Chin-up bar--> any railing, platform edge, top of door, overhead bar, etc. (chin-ups, pull-ups, leg raises, etc)
Edge of a bunk/bench-->tricep dips, step ups, knees up crunches, incline push-ups, etc
Open floor space (2' x your height) --> squats, lunges, push-ups, planks, calf raises, sit-up/crunches, hip abduction/adduction, glut bridges, squat press, single arm row, upright row, reverse crunch, and countless others.

If there is a will there is a way.

 

[gcclarke]

I still think we blow our PT standards out of proportion. Does it really take that much work to pass an express test?

It really shouldn't be that hard for anyone to meet the minimum standard in the CF. I can spend 0 hours a week doing PT and still attain or surpass that standard. I am not some naturally gifted athlete.  My father is 55 years old and can attain the standard for my age plus other things. I have had Pl WO's that smoke and drink themselves to death, and can still run level 10 or more on the beep test at age 40+.

At the same time, I do feel bad for some people that are overweight etc but very good at their trades. But what can you do?

In what other aspect of our jobs would merely shooting for the minimum pass be acceptable? If you teach a course where the pass rate is 50% and everyone taking the course gets 50%, this is not a success. Or, to more accurately fit the topic at hand, if you teach a course where the pass rate is 50%, and you stop teaching after covering 50% of the course material, any failures on the course are surely not solely the fault of the student; the onus lies upon you to ensure that your people are set up for success. People should be shooting for exempt. If they might have been able to do so had they been given adequate time to work out but did not because they were not, that is their boss's fault, not theirs.

 

[Pusser]

Well, we do get paid 24/7 right?

I mean don't get me wrong, I am not advocating against CO's doing all they can to ensure physical finess, I just think the more we push this childish (in my opinion it's childish and spoiled to think we are "owed" an hour a day to work out) "let us do it during our 40 hr work week then if it means so much to you" argument, the closer we get to doing mandatory unit PT from 7-8, and a 45 hr work week being the result.

And why I think that would be terrible is that it would be $#!++Y PT for somone that wants to strive to be in the best physical condition they can achieve, and very counterproductive to them. And it wouldn't be near good enough PT to justify this.

Sorry, I can't agree with this.  I don't think it's childish at all to expect that an organization that demands a certain level of fitness should provide us with the time and facilities to do this.  This does not necessarily lead to mandatory group PT sessions (which I agree are counterproductive).  The problems occur when leaders fail to understand their priorities and are prepared to sacrifice PT time for some (often arbitrary) deadline.

I'm glad you mentioned this.  Obviously a common navy problem.  It just takes some creativity.  Consider the following:

Chin-up bar--> any railing, platform edge, top of door, overhead bar, etc. (chin-ups, pull-ups, leg raises, etc)
Edge of a bunk/bench-->tricep dips, step ups, knees up crunches, incline push-ups, etc
Open floor space (2' x your height) --> squats, lunges, push-ups, planks, calf raises, sit-up/crunches, hip abduction/adduction, glut bridges, squat press, single arm row, upright row, reverse crunch, and countless others.

If there is a will there is a way.

Many of these exercises are impractical at sea on a moving platform.  Many ships now have Bowflex machines, as well as treadmills, ellipticals and stationary bikes.  The biggest challenge is finding a place to put the machines.  This problem may go away with newer ships (perhaps built with dedicated gym space?), but for the moment, we stuff machines wherever we can find a free space.  Conditions are not always ideal.

In what other aspect of our jobs would merely shooting for the minimum pass be acceptable? If you teach a course where the pass rate is 50% and everyone taking the course gets 50%, this is not a success. Or, to more accurately fit the topic at hand, if you teach a course where the pass rate is 50%, and you stop teaching after covering 50% of the course material, any failures on the course are surely not solely the fault of the student; the onus lies upon you to ensure that your people are set up for success. People should be shooting for exempt. If they might have been able to do so had they been given adequate time to work out but did not because they were not, that is their boss's fault, not theirs.

The key to all of this is the CF's failure to build a culture of fitness.  Why do we run the crap out of people on basic training and then stop! (with the possible exception of the combat arms)?  If we had a culture of fitness, we wouldn't have this problem as everyone would exercise routinely and think of it as simply part of their job (i.e. the idea of NOT exercising regularly simply wouldn't occur to anyone).  Who knows, if we manage to create a culture of fitness, we might even be able to eliminate the negative reinforcement system of Expres testing (i.e. pass this test or suffer the consequences) we currently have.

 

[Chilme]

The key to all of this is the CF's failure to build a culture of fitness.  Why do we run the crap out of people on basic training and then stop! (with the possible exception of the combat arms)?  If we had a culture of fitness, we wouldn't have this problem as everyone would exercise routinely and think of it as simply part of their job (i.e. the idea of NOT exercising regularly simply wouldn't occur to anyone).  Who knows, if we manage to create a culture of fitness, we might even be able to eliminate the negative reinforcement system of Expres testing (i.e. pass this test or suffer the consequences) we currently have.

I think you hit the nail on the head here.

 

[chrisf]

The key to all of this is the CF's failure to build a culture of fitness.  Why do we run the crap out of people on basic training and then stop! (with the possible exception of the combat arms)?  If we had a culture of fitness, we wouldn't have this problem as everyone would exercise routinely and think of it as simply part of their job (i.e. the idea of NOT exercising regularly simply wouldn't occur to anyone).  Who knows, if we manage to create a culture of fitness, we might even be able to eliminate the negative reinforcement system of Expres testing (i.e. pass this test or suffer the consequences) we currently have.

Somthing else that's always driven me nuts about PT is that it's occasionally viewed as a punishment. Especially referring to building a PT culture...

Given the fitness state of MOST new recruits (At least the individuals I've taught), i've become absolutely livid from my lofty posistion as "that guy who gets stuck filling in for the course warrant when disapears for the day" any time PT is used as corrective action. I'm all for PT, the more challenging/interesting, the better, but any time it gets associated with anything negative, especially during training phases, you're loosing the battle.

 

[Task]

Somthing else that's always driven me nuts about PT is that it's occasionally viewed as a punishment. Especially referring to building a PT culture...

Given the fitness state of MOST new recruits (At least the individuals I've taught), i've become absolutely livid from my lofty posistion as "that guy who gets stuck filling in for the course warrant when disapears for the day" any time PT is used as corrective action. I'm all for PT, the more challenging/interesting, the better, but any time it gets associated with anything negative, especially during training phases, you're loosing the battle.

Whole heartedly agree. Milpoints incoming.

 

[Sigger]

The key to all of this is the CF's failure to build a culture of fitness.

Interesting point.
However, from my experience I found the CF quite adept at cultivating a culture of fitness. Perhaps it could be narrowed even further to the respective CO?

 

[gcclarke]

Interesting point.
However, from my experience I found the CF quite adept at cultivating a culture of fitness. Perhaps it could be narrowed even further to the respective CO?

I can say that it certainly hasn't been the case in any navy unit I've ever been posted to, ship or shore establishment alike.

 

[Sigger]

And I digress

 

[Halifax Tar]

I can say that it certainly hasn't been the case in any navy unit I've ever been posted to, ship or shore establishment alike.

I know while I was posted to HMCS Toronto the command team did its most to enforce mandatory PT sessions 3 times a week. I also know with the amount of work and training that happens on a ship, while alongside, it simply wasn't possible to get even half the ships company out for this. Perhaps later in the day would have been better.

Priorities seem to be different among the elements. I know while I was in Pet we had PT every morning, but we spent the rest of the day sitting on a picnic table as well. Before some one gets in a tizzy I was an augmentee for 6 months in Pet. I'm sure its different if your posted there, but this is all I know of the army so far.

 

[Pusser]

I know while I was posted to HMCS Toronto the command team did its most to enforce mandatory PT sessions 3 times a week. I also know with the amount of work and training that happens on a ship, while alongside, it simply wasn't possible to get even half the ships company out for this. Perhaps later in the day would have been better.

This is what I'm talking about as a failure to create a culture of fitness.  The Command Team encourages it and tries to fit it into the schedule, but that's not good enough.  As an organization, we have to adjust the schedule to the fit the requirements, not try to squeeze the requirements into the existing schedule.  In other words, if it now takes us four weeks to prepare a ship for a deployment, perhaps we should now take five weeks in order to work in an hour a day for PT?  Impossible you say?  Not at all.  It just requires a change in mindset.  Remember when we could accumulate leave?  We used to combine short work periods with leave periods (essentially meaning that the Engineering Department got no leave).  When we changed the rules on leave accumulation, we had to stop doing that.  Now we have dedicated leave periods, yet the sky didn't fall (despite those who swore it would) and we still manage to put ships to sea.  Frankly, unless the bad guys are coming over the horizon, many of our deadlines are arbitrary anyway.  We just need to change the mindset.

 

[Halifax Tar]

This is what I'm talking about as a failure to create a culture of fitness.  The Command Team encourages it and tries to fit it into the schedule, but that's not good enough.  As an organization, we have to adjust the schedule to the fit the requirements, not try to squeeze the requirements into the existing schedule.  In other words, if it now takes us four weeks to prepare a ship for a deployment, perhaps we should now take five weeks in order to work in an hour a day for PT?  Impossible you say?  Not at all.  It just requires a change in mindset.  Remember when we could accumulate leave?  We used to combine short work periods with leave periods (essentially meaning that the Engineering Department got no leave).  When we changed the rules on leave accumulation, we had to stop doing that.  Now we have dedicated leave periods, yet the sky didn't fall (despite those who swore it would) and we still manage to put ships to sea.  Frankly, unless the bad guys are coming over the horizon, many of our deadlines are arbitrary anyway.  We just need to change the mindset.

I totally agree with you in all respects but there is another factor in this equation that is not mentioned. The Navy is heavily civilian driven and I think this had led to Navy that is out of whack some what with the requirements of the CF when it comes to PT.

I know on the east coast the fleet seems to revolve around FMF and the whims of its union controlled/restrained pers. This may be harsh but anyone with time in a FMF will know exactly what I'm talking about.

 

[Stoker]

I totally agree with you in all respects but there is another factor in this equation that is not mentioned. The Navy is heavily civilian driven and I think this had led to Navy that is out of whack some what with the requirements of the CF when it comes to PT.

I know on the east coast the fleet seems to revolve around FMF and the whims of its union controlled/restrained pers. This may be harsh but anyone with time in a FMF will know exactly what I'm talking about.

I know what your saying. I would even go further and say the union is out of control in that yard. Its bad enough that they are allowed in the dockyard gym.

 

[Halifax Tar]

I know what your saying. I would even go further and say the union is out of control in that yard. Its bad enough that they are allowed in the dockyard gym.

I actually have no problem with them in the gym. I do have a problem when one of my LS fails his PT test, I administer the IC with directed remedial PT 5 times a week for 12 weeks and the civi "supervisor" gets up in arms and I have to defend my action. Yet when it comes time to write PERs on this LS and I ask this supervisor in question for DIV Notes I get exactly as follows:

LS Bloggins works well with others
LS Bloggins smiles allot

JUNK!!!!

 

[Haggis]

Haggis' post was condescending to anyone who struggles with the EXPRES, yet toughs it out and passes.

Condescending?  For the love of all that it precious!  It's the MINIMUM freakin' standard!!!

Injuries aside, any human being who puts forth even the smallest of effort (after completing BMQ/BMOQ) to do PT should have any trouble maintaining the MINIMUM PHYSICAL FITNESS STANDARD!  (Yes, I'm yelling!!!).

It's a condition of service - a job requirement.  Just like keeping your will up to date, filling out your SOR.  I get pissed off at this topic because I've seen troops, senior NCMs and officers bitch and gripe about "not having time for PT.  Yet those same "warriors" will take 90 minute lunches, six smoke breaks a day and coffee breaks fore and afternoon.

I manage a 75 minute commute, an hour of PT, 7 hours of work (including lunch) and another 75 minute commute 5 days a week.  I still have time for my family, hobbies and some TV.  Sadly, I don't see too many of the "warriors" noted above doing the same thing - but then I generally avoid the smoking area....

The way I look at it is that I'm an Army CWO, expected to set and lead by example.  I'll be g*ddamned if I'm going to lead fit troops as a wrinkly, unpolished, unfit and unskilled fatbody.  Would you want your RSM/Coxn/SCWO suffering from dunlap's disease?  Would you want others to look at YOUR chief and say, "woah??  WTF???"  I'm the face of the NCO corps in my regiment, my corps of arms and my Army.  Since I'm ugly, I may as well be fit.

Now, if you still find that condescending, then I can't help you with that.

 

[prima6]

Prima,

Sounds neat. Does your unit have that policy written into official orders that a person could get a hold of? I might use it as an example and suggest a similar idea here.

Yes, it's in the CO's Policy on Physical Fitness which is a published order.  I'll PM you.

 

[Fishbone Jones]

Condescending?  For the love of all that it precious!  It's the MINIMUM freakin' standard!!!

Injuries aside, any human being who puts forth even the smallest of effort (after completing BMQ/BMOQ) to do PT should have any trouble maintaining the MINIMUM PHYSICAL FITNESS STANDARD!  (Yes, I'm yelling!!!).

It's a condition of service - a job requirement.  Just like keeping your will up to date, filling out your SOR.  I get pissed off at this topic because I've seen troops, senior NCMs and officers bitch and gripe about "not having time for PT.  Yet those same "warriors" will take 90 minute lunches, six smoke breaks a day and coffee breaks fore and afternoon.

I manage a 75 minute commute, an hour of PT, 7 hours of work (including lunch) and another 75 minute commute 5 days a week.  I still have time for my family, hobbies and some TV.  Sadly, I don't see too many of the "warriors" noted above doing the same thing - but then I generally avoid the smoking area....

The way I look at it is that I'm an Army CWO, expected to set and lead by example.  I'll be g*ddamned if I'm going to lead fit troops as a wrinkly, unpolished, unfit and unskilled fatbody.  Would you want your RSM/Coxn/SCWO suffering from dunlap's disease?  Would you want others to look at YOUR chief and say, "woah??  WTF???"  I'm the face of the NCO corps in my regiment, my corps of arms and my Army.  Since I'm ugly, I may as well be fit.

Now, if you still find that condescending, then I can't help you with that.

And that is why we didn't correct jwtg about his comment

Milnet.ca Staff

 

[jwtg]

EDIT: Changed my mind.  Not worth the debate.

 

[Sigger]

And that is why we didn't correct jwtg about his comment

Milnet.ca Staff