CF-105 Arrow (not army related, but still CF related.)

[quebecrunner]

So, we have a long history of buying second hand instead of creating hour own equipment... And a long history of americans interference in our government decision...

 

[condor888000]

In short, YES!

 

[Pte.Nomercy]

I actually had the great honor of personally knowing the test pilot for the AVRO Arrow, Janusz Zurakowski. He was an amazing person and a true patriot to this country, and his home soil Poland. I met him when I was young, through ages 8 to 12, when we would go up to Barry's Bay to his lodge and camp grounds and rent a room, and stay on the property for weeks at a time.

Despite his age, he had the energy and stamina well younger then his years, every morning he would do PT, and through out all sorts of construction over his property etc.

In his living room there were various awards and medals, pertaining to his World War 2 heroism and there were also many declarations for his work on the AVRO.

When we talked with him about the AVRO, he mentioned many reasons as to why the AVRO was scraped; many reasons are mentioned in posts above. However, he also told us allot of â Å“inside rumorsâ ? as to what really was going on and who was doing what.

Nevertheless, it was great to meet someone who reached Mach 2, he passed away about 3 months ago at 89, and was very close to his 90th birthday. There's going to be an entire museum dedicated to him in Barry's Bay, as they already erected a monument for him there.

http://www.avroarrow.org/AvroArrow/Zurapark.html

Such an honor to meet the man that did the impossible, and made our country world renowned.

 

[condor888000]

It‘s sad, that was the last time he piloted a plane. Do you think you can share some of the "inside rumors" that you mentioned?

 

[Pte.Nomercy]

The "inside rumors" were what became reality as to why the project was scraped. So he told us chronologically and accurately as to when trouble began to shadow over the AVRO the first day that the rumors started.

Basically, he told us who did what and what over all what was going on as the project was increasingly being frowned upon by the government.

So in reality, he, and everyone else working on AVRO, foresaw what would be the primary reasons, aforementioned by other members‘ posts already, as to why the Arrow was shut down and destroyed.

It‘s sad yes, but we have to remember this chapter in our country‘s history in order not to let such a screw up on such a promising project happen again!

 

[condor888000]

Definatly!

 

[Northern Touch]

Just a quick fact. I was watching good ol‘ Discovery yesterday which was doing a show on the space program. They actually mentioned that a man named Jim Chamberlain (sp?) who helped design the Avro Aero, later designed almost the whole Gemini space shuttle himself.

Goes to show you just how brilliant some of the people working on the project were.

 

[Franko]

It‘s just too bad that the program was shut down just as they were about to finish

From then on the "Great Canadian Brain Drain" started and hasn‘t really stopped.

Regards

 

[sguido]

*snip*
 Do you think an other project like this could be undertaken to replace to CF-18?

The other answers to the question of, "What happened" have been answered in excellent detail, so I'll throw in 2 cents on this one.

Quick answer:  Nope.

Long, flyboy answer:  No.  Canada has sort of made a decision on the next manned fighter aircraft:  the F-35 JSF (no cool nickname yet.)  Canada entered as a junior level partner in the 'competition' between the X-32 and the X-35.  Lockheed Martin's X-35 beat Boeing's X-32, and won the JSF (Joint Strike Fighter) competition.  The F-35 comes in three flavours; A, B, and C models.  The A model is the USAF version; standard CTOL (conventional take off/landing), internal gun standard, large fuel and payload.  B is the USMC and UK VSTOL (Vertical/Short Take Off/Landing) version, with a cool engine arrangement.  C is the USN version, strengthened for Carrier operations.  Check out http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/ac/jsf.htm for the full details.

The JSF is supposed to be the replacement for the AV-8B Harrier (all variants), the A-10 Thunderbolt II, the F-16 Fighting Falcon (all variants), and the A/B/C/D model F/A-18 Hornets.

So...is it the best choice for Canada?

One of the main reasons the Hornet wears the maple leaf is because of twin engine redundancy.  Even though the F-16 was cheaper, and a more logical buy for Canada, which retired her last carrier a long time ago, it was decided that twin engines offered better chances of survival in case of engine failure.  Seeing as how a main task of the Hornet was to be NORAD and assorted DEW line operations, those two engines looked mighty fine to pilots who had to fly over the literal Great White North.  Punch out in the tundra...well, better hope the weather is good, because if it ain't, SAR stays home  (Not their choice...hard to fly when your bird refuses to.  SAR personnel have my utmost respect.)  Two engines meant a chance to bring it back and enjoy a hot meal instead of playing dodge the polar bear/try not to freeze.

It was a controversial choice mainly because of a major screw up in the design of the Hornet.  The F/A-18 was a descendant of the YF-17 Cobra, the aircraft that lost to the F-16 in the lightweight fighter development.  The US Navy felt that a redesigned Cobra could be a viable fighter, and the Hornet was born.  Only problem was that the Cobra's gas tanks only had to keep her up for a few flights in the fly off, not full fledged combat missions.  When they designed the Hornet, they forgot to scale up the fuel requirements.  This means the Hornet needs a drink very often, or needs to carry drop tanks.

So, Canada got stuck with a thirsty bird that needs air tanker support, or they suffer from increased drag/lowered payload due to drop tanks needing to be carried.

We now come to the JSF.  Engine technology is at a point where you can put up with a single engine fighter. (Tests for airliners show that even the trans-oceanic big birds can fly safely with two reliable engines instead of four; hence the 777 taking over the job of the 747.)  This reliability means that single engine fighters, like the old retired F-86 and CF-104, are once again a viable choice.

But which one?  Which version of the F-35 will Canada take?  I hope they take the A; taking away an internal gun is sacriledge.  The payload and fuel is sufficient for Canadian operations, and I don't think we *really* need a STOVL version.  (C model...forget it.  The extra weight for carrier ops means you can't take extra fuel or payload.)

But I really wish that they could take a serious look at a high end/low end mix, and field a couple of squadrons of the F/A-18E/F as well.

However...we've seen that expensive new toys sometimes get gutted at the last moment.  Take the RAH-66 Comanche, for example...

 

[Military Brat]

Off topic, but it is still related to the Avro Arrow so I will throw it out there.

Early this month, for 3 days they expect, there is some sort of search planned in Lake Ontario for 9 scale model Avro Arrows, involving the HMCS Cataraqui and HMCS Glace Bay.

Here is a link for those of you interested in reading the article.

http://www.globeandmail.com/servlet/story/RTGAM.20040625.wxavro0625/BNStory/Front/

 

[themaskeduser]

well rumors have it that the plans of the avro arrow is in the bottom of lake ontario
and there's a lot more to the issue

 

[Inch]

The engine had somewhere near 65000-75000 pounds of thrust (no afterburners). With afterburners it was incredible. No wonder everyone wanted it.

Sorry, I had to read your post a few times before I realized why the numbers didn't look right. I don't know of a jet engine that puts out 65,000 lbs of thrust, even today.   The Hornet only puts out 18,000 per engine and for that matter, the C-17 Globemaster's engines put out a little over 40,000 lbs of thrust each.   P & W makes and engine for the 767 that puts out up to 62,000 lbs of thrust, but it's damn near 8 ft in diameter, needless to say that wouldn't fit in a fighter.   I don't mean to nitpick but it just goes to show the legends and myths associated with the Arrow.  

Another point, I read about someone comparing it to a CF-18, the Arrow would get it's butt kicked, it was designed for interception of supersonic bombers, not dog-fighting.

Just my $0.02 minus the obligatory 42% for the liberals to waste.

 

[Skuller]

Howdy.  New here.  Just a couple historical notes... I did some research on the Arrow in University.  What REALLY amazed me was the acceptance of the BOMARC missle as a replacement for the Arrow.  The Bomarc was an interceptor missle, and NOT capable of intercepting an ICBM as Dief was originally led to believe. 

So I had to ask the question:  WHY A NUCLEAR WARHEAD for an interceptor?

Someone alluded to the fact that Canada refused to accept American personnel (Nuke Techs) to operate  the Bomarcs, and so the warheads were filled with sand for ballast.

Why nuclear?  An interview with a CF Major provided some answers... He said, "...rumor was it couldn't even fly.  It had a REALLY poor guidance system and therefore needed a really BIG bang to destroy its target.  It could only get in the general vicinity of its target."

And for the record, the purpose of an Interceptor aircraft at the time was to identify an unknown aircraft and determine what action, if any, should be taken.  The Arrow would have EXCELLED in this particular role.  A missle, however, has only one purpose; destroy a percieved threat based on information that has not necessarily been varified.

And so... Canada's air defence at the time really relied on a rocket powered sand bag that couldn't hit a target.

 

[Villy]

Ditto the comment of the Arrow being an interceptor vs the F18 furball warrior.

I heard a story many years ago that if the access road to a Bomarc site was badly rutted - the vibs from a lorry driving down the road could through the calibration of the gyros out of wack..

Nuclear warhead for the Bomarc - Area denial.  Anywhere within the same county works.  The Falcon and the Genie were both nuclear tipped Air to Air Missiles from the days when guidance systems weren't quite up to the task.  The Bomarc sported a 10 KT warhead, The Genie a 1.7 Kt, and the Falcon 1/4 KT. 

Orenda Iroquois  19,250 dry & 26,500 wet (or with reheat as the Brits would say).  It's greatest claim to fame imho was the extensive use of Titanium - a metal was was just about useless until the lads (and gals) at Orenda managed to tame it.

The American Space Program gained immensely from the demise of the Arrow (as did the American Aerospace Industry in general)

I read a noverl some years ago where an American Weapons program was mentioned in passing.  The context was about an SAM that was (dammit was!) going to look successful no matter what!  Tests were faked documentation lost etc etc.  No name was ever mentioned, and it was fiction.  Makes one wonder though...

Declared operational in '60 after 8 years of developed and obsolete in '65.  Cost to USAF was $US 1.5 Million each (+ support stuff)

that was $US300K more than a Voodoo cost

Go figure...

 

[.68]

Always when i hear about the arrow, or see its picture...

I am deeply saddened, and disapointed in the government at the time.

What could have potentially been a turning point in canadian history, turned into a tragic disapointment.

Not only did we lose so many potential buyers for the technology, but we lost some of our brightest minds to the US of A

Terrible Terrible, for shame.

If the government would have taken the chance and spent the money to finish a project that was nearly completed, it could have changed the future of aviation and aerospace development in out country.

By the way, loved the movie to.

 

[Clément Barbeau Vermet]

By the way, loved the movie to.

My favourite part is when they decide to visit our US friends without warning so the Americans want to intercept the Arrow but the Arrow is so fast that by the time their pilots are running to get in their fighters the Arrow passes over their heads ans flies away... ;D

 

[jbeach95]

Hey, I remember this topic...

Nuclear warhead for the Bomarc - Area denial.  Anywhere within the same county works.  The Falcon and the Genie were both nuclear tipped Air to Air Missiles from the days when guidance systems weren't quite up to the task.  The Bomarc sported a 10 KT warhead, The Genie a 1.7 Kt, and the Falcon 1/4 KT. 

Just reading old posts, and I want to clarify something. The GAR-11/AIM-26 Falcon had a nuclear warhead, but the AIM-4 Falcon that the Arrow was going to use did not. Development of the GAR-11/AIM-26 did not even start until 1959 -- too late for use in the Arrow.

Nuclear warheads were added to air-to-air missiles for head-on engagements, because radar guidance wasn't good enough yet (and infrared guidance systems only really worked from behind where they could detect the hot exhaust).

AIM-4:
http://www.designation-systems.net/dusrm/m-4.html

AIM-26:
http://www.designation-systems.net/dusrm/m-26.html

AIM-4/AIM-26:
http://www.hill.af.mil/museum/photos/coldwar/falcon.htm

 

[Guy. E]

I know why the Arrows and plans were destroyed! (i figured it out all by my self ;D ) it is simple.

Back in the day if you look at the figures, AvRoe was working the government over for cash good. Not only were they designing a new air frame, but they were working on new engines and a missile system. for a country the size of Canada in the 50's this is a very ambitious task. Not only were they working on hat they were also working on the AvRoe Car for the US. When reports were flying that the arrow was not meeting requirements or was as good as it was supposed to be, it got the government thinking. Pressure form the US with the Bomarks had the Canadian government thinking about alternate possibilities.

All of this was not helped by the fast that Crawford Gordon did not have a good friendly relationship with the new Conservative Priminister.

When push came to shove the Priminister in all his wisdom decided to pull the plug on the project. now heres where things get good.

This is the late 1950's. We have the worlds most advanced fighter interceptor, the most advanced jet turbine engines, fly by wire systems, navigation systems and most advanced weapons. We just canceled this massively expensive project. Now what? the only good solution at the time was to destroy everything. what if the Russians or anyone else got a hold of this cutting edge technology it could be used against us or who knows what?

After the arrow project was shut down AvRoe produced aluminum boats and cooking ware for a period of time before going under. Also during the development of the Arrow, a division of AvRow made one turbine powered semi truck that vanashed back in the 50's when everything was being shut down.

I purchased a book called the Arrow Scrap book. It is about a man Peter Zurring ? along with the Arrow Alliance in southern Ontario who was supposed to be building a full scale completely working flying arrow. They had found lots of old drawings as well as several Iroquois engines and lots of various other parts. including large sections of wings and so on.

I have been searching the net for current up to date information but have fallen short. I think the project fell through.

Once again the book is called the Arrow Scrap Book, I think it cost me about $50 three or four years ago.

Also, i cant say that the Arrow being scraped was so terrabley bad. Without all of the engineers going else where, Canada could be better then we are now or in the predicament that the states are in. I am satisfied knowing that Canada is responsible for the development of the Concorde, Space Shuttle, Black Bird, as well as a strong influence on the designs of modern fighters such as the CF18, F22 and several other which names i forgot because i had better things to do then remember fighter jet statistics.

There is allot more I can go on here, however it is getting late and i have work tomorrow.

Good Night.

 

[Good2Golf]

Interesting tid bits relating to the Iroquois engine...there was apparently a full engine in parts tucked into a corner of the NRC Wind Tunnel's storage building at CFB Uplands that has eventually made it's way to the NAM at Rockliffe.

For those interested in aeropropulsion history, take a look at the late-50's vintage Iroquois engine then compare that to the early/mid-60's vintage G.E. J-58 used in the SR-71 Blackbird.....compressor section, cannular combustion chambers and turbine section......hmmmm....

Cheers,
Duey

 

[condor888000]

Interesting tid bits relating to the Iroquois engine...there was apparently a full engine in parts tucked into a corner of the NRC Wind Tunnel's storage building at CFB Uplands that has eventually made it's way to the NAM at Rockliffe.

CAM now and yes its there, along with 206's cockpit, a couple of sets of wingtips and a landing gear or two.