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CDN/US Covid-related political discussion

Bruce Monkhouse

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I psychically asked 4 people yesterday....all said no, because it would have been the Astra one. Stop getting shit other countries won't use, which has made our people say 'no', and get us vaccines people will use.
 

Altair

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I psychically asked 4 people yesterday....all said no, because it would have been the Astra one. Stop getting shit other countries won't use, which has made our people say 'no', and get us vaccines people will use.
If older people don't want AZ, then make adults in Canada sign a waiver that there is a 1 in 15000 chance you get a blood clot and open it up to the general population.

As for other countries not wanting it, the EU put bloody export controls on AZ, and the UK has been mass producing it in order to vaccinate their populace.
 

Weinie

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The spending going on right now is on par with WW2 in terms of the deficit and labour disruption.

But we have no increased capacity anywhere in the economy to show for it, and that is criminal.

Ontario is locked down because 500 or so people are in ICU with covid. No increased capacity, no field hospitals to handle a surge, no increase of qualified nurses and doctors.

No increase in qualified individuals to run the websites needed to book people for the most important vaccination program in 100 years.

No increase in the people qualified to give vaccines to people.

It would be funny if it were not so tragic. This is how to handle a pandemic on a shoestring budget but its costing as much as WW2.

So yes, I empathize with those dealing with the challenges being faces, from procurement, to logistics, to personnel. But I also am at the point of thinking we Canadians are just plain incompetent. The UK and USA have a lot of the same logistical issues we do and are flying, here in Canada, we finally have solved the supply issues and we are now running into issues on how to get people vaccinated.

Quebec, now on my S-list, has 800k in storage and vaccinated 40k today. Unacceptable.

Ontario, sitting on 1.5m in storage, doled out 72k when the province says they could do 150k a day. If you can do 150k a day, DO IT.
Hard to disagree with many of those points.
 

Altair

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And thank god, USA saying no to covid vaccine passports.

Hopefully Canada follows suit.
 

Weinie

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I's a slippery slope. I mentioned governments in a previous post. What if a major company, that you frequent, declares that only those who can prove they have been vaccinated can access their stores. They would piss off 20% of the population, but would likely garner more customers from another frequented company who have not made a similar declaration. Good luck in a court with fighting the prejudice/tort of that.
 

daftandbarmy

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I's a slippery slope. I mentioned governments in a previous post. What if a major company, that you frequent, declares that only those who can prove they have been vaccinated can access their stores. They would piss off 20% of the population, but would likely garner more customers from another frequented company who have not made a similar declaration. Good luck in a court with fighting the prejudice/tort of that.

Especially since being vaccinated and having such a passport doesn't guarantee that you still can't transmit/ catch the virus/ variants.
 

Altair

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I's a slippery slope. I mentioned governments in a previous post. What if a major company, that you frequent, declares that only those who can prove they have been vaccinated can access their stores. They would piss off 20% of the population, but would likely garner more customers from another frequented company who have not made a similar declaration. Good luck in a court with fighting the prejudice/tort of that.
The proof will likely lie at the government level, and if the government doesn't play ball, then how will the companies be able to implement a system of proof?
 

dapaterson

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You already require proof of certain vaccinations for travel to certain countries. Some professions require proof of TB testing and, if there's a false positive, a chest xray.

Requiring proof of vaccination is nothing new... but thanks for reminding me. I have money to invest, and Alcan looks pretty good.
 

Altair

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You already require proof of certain vaccinations for travel to certain countries. Some professions require proof of TB testing and, if there's a false positive, a chest xray.

Requiring proof of vaccination is nothing new... but thanks for reminding me. I have money to invest, and Alcan looks pretty good.
For international travel, sure.

For going to a restaurant, bar, sporting event? No.
 

mariomike

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Requiring proof of vaccination is nothing new...
It certainly is not...

My former employer required proof of,
  • Current immunizations - Hep B, (Tetanus, Diphtheria, Pertussis), proof of immunity to Varicella TDP, flu shot (recommended), MMR (Measles, Mumps, Rubella)
  • Free from all communicable diseases
Proof of seasonal Influenza vaccination was required every year. They eventually made the flu shot optional. But, if you didn't get it,

All Paramedics who have elected not to have the influenza vaccine will be required to wear full PPE on all respiratory illness calls.
 

lenaitch

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I can appreciate the challenges involved.

But they also had a year of lead time. Summer wasn't too bad in terms of covid numbers, they had a chance to pivot from utter crisis mode to future planning mode. Vaccines were finishing trials in November, getting approval in December, deliveries starting shortly after.

And then there was the slow procurement of January , February, early March. So from in absolute terms, march to march, if i'm being generous, july to march, to prepare for this. US states have had a lot more supply being thrown at them and they are flying. Meanwhile here we are, the supply is finally arriving and the provinces are looking like they are having issues ramping up. I mean, if you have places who are doing 70+, 60+, and appointments to spare, open it up to everyone. Offer Pfizer and Moderna to every adult if you have the capacity. Let everyone register on the website, and if those in the age appointment window are not filling every appointment, let every able bodied adult that wants a vaccine that day apply to get one.

If you don't have enough people, hire more. If you cannot hire more, bring in the soldiers. Get med techs training inf to give vaccines, and ramp this up. Enough is enough.

It really does speak to a lack of planning. Once it was reasonably known that vaccines were coming down the line, they could have ramped-up the framework of a delivery system for poking 2x35Mn people with the finer points being blended in as information became known. Giving an IM injection is not rocket surgery; heck, I imagine most owners of livestock do it regularly - we did - and they bite and kick. They is some lead time for basic recruiting, vetting, training, etc. so it might be a day late to start now. There are also the issues of handling/storage (particularly for the ultra-low temp versions), dosing, etc. There also might be a degree of push-back from the public who are not getting jabbed by a 'medical professional'. They could also enlist veterinarians but that might have so bad karma to it. Any front-line healthcare worker I know is fried; they've been worked like rented mules for about a year.
The proof will likely lie at the government level, and if the government doesn't play ball, then how will the companies be able to implement a system of proof?
That would be the challenge. Businesses are private, and until somebody successfully makes the case that the lack of a vaccine is a prohibited ground of discrimination, they are pretty much free to make such a determination. But what would acceptable proof look like might vary from one business to the next. People have been making verbal claims of 'medical exemption' for not wearing masks and most businesses don't want to touch it. For school kids it was easier - back in the day in Ontario it was a little card (yellow I think) with the Ministry of Health logo and spaces for the type and date and was accepted by all Boards. Probably going back further it was likely even easier since the 'school nurse' was the one who delivered the blows.
 

mariomike

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Giving an IM injection is not rocket surgery; heck, I imagine most owners of livestock do it regularly - we did - and they bite and kick. They is some lead time for basic recruiting, vetting, training, etc. so it might be a day late to start now.
I read about a young woman during a 1947 scare in NYC who couldn't wait to get started,

A 29-year-old woman, dressed up as a nurse, vaccinated 500 people with water to impress her “man companion” until she was sent to the Bellevue psychiatric ward for evaluation.
 

Altair

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It really does speak to a lack of planning. Once it was reasonably known that vaccines were coming down the line, they could have ramped-up the framework of a delivery system for poking 2x35Mn people with the finer points being blended in as information became known. Giving an IM injection is not rocket surgery; heck, I imagine most owners of livestock do it regularly - we did - and they bite and kick. They is some lead time for basic recruiting, vetting, training, etc. so it might be a day late to start now. There are also the issues of handling/storage (particularly for the ultra-low temp versions), dosing, etc. There also might be a degree of push-back from the public who are not getting jabbed by a 'medical professional'. They could also enlist veterinarians but that might have so bad karma to it. Any front-line healthcare worker I know is fried; they've been worked like rented mules for about a year.
Again, if people want the perfect experience, they can wait in the queue for the Moderna or Pfizer vaccines delivered by a medical professional.

For those who don't want to get sick or die, or pass it on to others who might get sick or die, have a veterinarian or soldier give the AZ poke, and get it over with. Open to all ages, waiver signed, done.


That would be the challenge. Businesses are private, and until somebody successfully makes the case that the lack of a vaccine is a prohibited ground of discrimination, they are pretty much free to make such a determination. But what would acceptable proof look like might vary from one business to the next. People have been making verbal claims of 'medical exemption' for not wearing masks and most businesses don't want to touch it. For school kids it was easier - back in the day in Ontario it was a little card (yellow I think) with the Ministry of Health logo and spaces for the type and date and was accepted by all Boards. Probably going back further it was likely even easier since the 'school nurse' was the one who delivered the blows.
I've seen and personally witnessed enough cases of people with special needs children, people who cannot bend their arms and thus cannot reasonably put on a mask, people with young kids getting flak by business over just the mask mandates to trust the private sector to properly deal with any vaccine passport idea.

So unless we want to see immunocompromised individuals get completely shut out by society because they cannot be vaccinated, I would rather just vaccinate every one who want one, and others assume the risk if they do not.
 

Altair

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Unfortunately, the "vaccines in freezers meme" may just be a way to deflect criticism from terrible supply from the Federal Government:

The “Vaccines in Freezers” Fallacy
Interesting. I wonder where the 1.4 million vaccines are then, if not in freezers.

All kidding aside, the article says that the delays in January meant they put in a policy of having 2-3 days supply on hand.

They said that they could vaccinate 150k a day if they had the supply.

So simple math says, 450k would be needed to have that on hand.

They currently have 1.4 million and are doling out 76k a day right now.

At 150k a day, they have 9 days supply.

at 76k a day, they have 18 days supply.

in Quebec, they have 800k, and did 40k of vaccinations today. Thats 20 days supply.

So at current rates, the two biggest provinces have 18-20 days supply, and they are getting topped up every 4 days now it seems. So 20 days supply will quickly turn into 30 days supply unless things pick up drastically.

This article gets a failing grade from me.
 
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brihard

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Unfortunately, the "vaccines in freezers meme" may just be a way to deflect criticism from terrible supply from the Federal Government:

The “Vaccines in Freezers” Fallacy
She’s trying to gaslight us, but that’s hardly a surprise. Swift has some notoriety for partisan leanings. That in itself is fine, but she can’t claim to be an objective broker here. She’s trying to defend the provincial Conservative government against the federal Liberal one. But a million and a half doses in freezers don’t lie. We have another 810k arriving over the next six days. The seven day average for shots in arms is about 73k. They could put a 1.2 million in arms today, and then administer 130k a day and would break even with a buffer sufficient for a few days. Obviously 1.2m in a day is a non starter, but administer as many per day as possible for the next 10-14 days, and if stocks get within striking distance of 500k they can reassess on the move.

The opinion piece itself is junk, for the reasons nicely demonstrated by Altair. Supply insecurity has long ceased to be a sufficient explanation for keeping two weeks or more of doses on hand. The feds can be blamed for freezers that are empty, not freezers that are full. They are no longer the problem in Ontario.
 

PuckChaser

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Considering the US is starting everyone that wants a vaccine can have one by end April, and Canada's stretch goal is September, its much more plausible evil Doug Ford is hoarding vaccines to kill people instead of believing the near weekly stories of 6 figure missed or delayed shipments.

Show me the contract details and I'll believe there's distribution issues. Until then, real data (not one cherry picked stat like freezers) shows a trend of missing or delayed shipments from the Feds.
 

Bruce Monkhouse

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I just read an article in the Ottawa Citizen where Doug Ford says every vaccine in the freezer is spoken for by appointments over the next 2 weeks. And all we need is a steady supply....over to you Justin.
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brihard

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I just read an article in the Ottawa Citizen where Doug Ford says every vaccine in the freezer is spoken for by appointments over the next 2 weeks. And all we need is a steady supply....over to you Justin.
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BS. The actual daily shots in arms doesn’t come close to accounting for that.

Ford said the province could do 150k a day if the feds got them the shots. His words. He lied. His government is failing to get even half of that administered.

If the appointment based system as it stands means a two week supply or more in freezers, then that system is the next choke point to attack because it’s the blood clot in the artery of Ontario’s vaccine flow.

The province knows it’s getting 810,000 doses between now and the 11th. It knows it has almost 1.5m sitting in freezers right now. That’s hard data. Those should be going into arms. Even if starting today they doubled it to 150k a day, that’s still a two week supply even with no deliveries after April 11th.

The objective reality here does not support you position, and you’re buying the BS Ford is trying to sell to explain the failure to deliver vaccines to recipients. The province. Owns this. The stockpile continues to grow. By the 12th, at current delivery and immunization rates, it will probably be up to close to two million.

This ceased to be a defensible failure a week ago. Stop giving the provincial government an undeserved freebie on this. We held the feds to account when they were dropping the ball, but they are not the problem anymore.

Every full freezer is a Ford failure. He’s premier, he owns this. He needs to ensure Dr. Tien is given marching orders to get this going expeditiously, beginning with meeting his existing promise to double to 150k a day given the available supply.
 
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