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Canada's tanks

It’s also interesting to see the reluctance and resistance of some companies to allowing the use of their IP, and that it is part of the reason for Leo parts shortages.

It does give weight to the desire or insistence that the military own the IP to their equipment or at least deal with another allied military that owns it vs a private or public corporation.

I assume the US Government owns to Abrams IP and I am curious about who owns the IP for the K2, LAV 6, etc.
Generally the US DoD is demanding on holding the IP for most contracts theses days.
However part of the problem with that is that DLA often likes to put stuff for bid - that may or may not be compatible.
Also holding the TDP doesn’t always tell you how to make it right, it just tells you what the end result is.

I’m a firm believer in using the OEM for most warfighting items and their components.
 
Just putting on my tin foil and flame retarding suit here before I get set on fire for my thoughts.

LEO 2, was born in the 1970s, service life was 1979 to present day. With upgrades and mods etc, it is fairly new on the tank market and very new to the used Tank market. 44 old year tank

M1A1 was born in 1970s, 1972 design date , service history of 1980. With upgrades etc, it is the newer beast on the market, not really on the used market as much. 43 year old tank

Challenger 2 was born in 1986, service life after 1993, upgrades to Challenger 3 status 2027

LEO 2 is just gaining combat experience, till the Ukraine I could not find any tank on tank work for the LEO History ( maybe some one here has details pre Ukraine ) but lots or reported damage and abandoned tanks but crews were alive. ( This could be chalked up to not enough time for training and operating the LEO before going on the battlefield )

M1A1 and newer models have been proven and improved upon after every engagement.

Canada and tank history is never good. Post Second World War, we have not maintained a tank fleet that could go to war or taken our own tanks.

Korea came a long and instead of using Tanks already owned by Canada, ( 294 Sherman M4A2E8 in country surplus Lend / Lease Russia from end of war, ) we arranged to use 20 M4A3E8 tanks acquired from US stocks already in Korea for Korean War service in 1951.

Afghanistan comes along and the tanks we have in stock are worn out, not fit for combat use, so we borrow equipment again this time from Germany and buy used tanks and replace the German stock from those used tanks after paying to upgrade them. ( upgrade the bare minimum of Canadian Tanks for training)


So here is my thought and this why I need the fire proof suit on.

Canada forgets about owning tanks, since there a combined 12 408 tanks of various models in NATO and the report I read shows Canada has 82 of those tanks. ( Canada is number 12 on the list ).

Instead of operating a tank regiment or regiments, we ally our tank regiments with another NATO country and we train and man their tanks for them on NATO Operations.

Save costs on training, maintaining, storing ( we do a lot of storing of tanks) and offer up one of the Western Canadian training areas as the NATO tank school.


The UK has come to Canada for years and trained their tankers and soldiers in Western Canada because the training area is almost as big all their training bases (CFB Suffield is 2700 square KM or just over 1000 square miles, Catterick Garrison is 10 square km or 2400 acres. Salisbury Plain Training area The MoD now own 150 square miles (390 km2) of land, making it the largest military training area in the United Kingdom. Much of this land is let to farmers or grazed under licence, while around 47 square miles (120 km2) (12,000 ha) are used for live firing, where public access is greatly restricted or permanently closed.)

My plan would be scrap or sell off the Canadian tank fleet, train Canadian soldiers to operate a fleet of NATO supplied tanks, LEO2, Challenger2 and the latest M1 tank so that if Canada joins NATO on an operations they are trained of vast number of tank models and can effective operate them professionally . Canadian tanker become the home team at the training center providing enemy force , this way Canadians are training as attacking and on the defense. The equipment is funded by the NATO group and Canada gets next to free training. Our Tank commanders get training at leading a larger tank force, maintaniners get to maintain operational tanks and support vehicles. Our troops get training and some one else helps pay for it.


Think of it a lot like the British Commonwealth Aircrew Training Plan from the Second World War and this time it is tanks

hiding now before Canadian tankers find me and burn me out
 
Just putting on my tin foil and flame retarding suit here before I get set on fire for my thoughts.

LEO 2, was born in the 1970s, service life was 1979 to present day. With upgrades and mods etc, it is fairly new on the tank market and very new to the used Tank market. 44 old year tank

M1A1 was born in 1970s, 1972 design date , service history of 1980. With upgrades etc, it is the newer beast on the market, not really on the used market as much. 43 year old tank

Challenger 2 was born in 1986, service life after 1993, upgrades to Challenger 3 status 2027

LEO 2 is just gaining combat experience, till the Ukraine I could not find any tank on tank work for the LEO History ( maybe some one here has details pre Ukraine ) but lots or reported damage and abandoned tanks but crews were alive. ( This could be chalked up to not enough time for training and operating the LEO before going on the battlefield )

M1A1 and newer models have been proven and improved upon after every engagement.

Canada and tank history is never good. Post Second World War, we have not maintained a tank fleet that could go to war or taken our own tanks.

Korea came a long and instead of using Tanks already owned by Canada, ( 294 Sherman M4A2E8 in country surplus Lend / Lease Russia from end of war, ) we arranged to use 20 M4A3E8 tanks acquired from US stocks already in Korea for Korean War service in 1951.

Afghanistan comes along and the tanks we have in stock are worn out, not fit for combat use, so we borrow equipment again this time from Germany and buy used tanks and replace the German stock from those used tanks after paying to upgrade them. ( upgrade the bare minimum of Canadian Tanks for training)


So here is my thought and this why I need the fire proof suit on.

Canada forgets about owning tanks, since there a combined 12 408 tanks of various models in NATO and the report I read shows Canada has 82 of those tanks. ( Canada is number 12 on the list ).

Instead of operating a tank regiment or regiments, we ally our tank regiments with another NATO country and we train and man their tanks for them on NATO Operations.

Save costs on training, maintaining, storing ( we do a lot of storing of tanks) and offer up one of the Western Canadian training areas as the NATO tank school.


The UK has come to Canada for years and trained their tankers and soldiers in Western Canada because the training area is almost as big all their training bases (CFB Suffield is 2700 square KM or just over 1000 square miles, Catterick Garrison is 10 square km or 2400 acres. Salisbury Plain Training area The MoD now own 150 square miles (390 km2) of land, making it the largest military training area in the United Kingdom. Much of this land is let to farmers or grazed under licence, while around 47 square miles (120 km2) (12,000 ha) are used for live firing, where public access is greatly restricted or permanently closed.)

My plan would be scrap or sell off the Canadian tank fleet, train Canadian soldiers to operate a fleet of NATO supplied tanks, LEO2, Challenger2 and the latest M1 tank so that if Canada joins NATO on an operations they are trained of vast number of tank models and can effective operate them professionally . Canadian tanker become the home team at the training center providing enemy force , this way Canadians are training as attacking and on the defense. The equipment is funded by the NATO group and Canada gets next to free training. Our Tank commanders get training at leading a larger tank force, maintaniners get to maintain operational tanks and support vehicles. Our troops get training and some one else helps pay for it.


Think of it a lot like the British Commonwealth Aircrew Training Plan from the Second World War and this time it is tanks

hiding now before Canadian tankers find me and burn me out
Or go one step farther. Throw in the towel....Hand the US the DND budget. US let Canadians join the US forces and be done with it. I would bet the average MP, the majority of Toronto population and current PM would be over joyed will never have to think about nasty things like guns and uniforms. Plus the added bonus of supercharging their favourite pass time of criticizing the US for everything without having to do anything about it.
 
Or go one step farther. Throw in the towel....Hand the US the DND budget. US let Canadians join the US forces and be done with it. I would bet the average MP, the majority of Toronto population and current PM would be over joyed will never have to think about nasty things like guns and uniforms. Plus the added bonus of supercharging their favourite pass time of criticizing the US for everything without having to do anything about it.
I cannot agree with that step, but a NATO trained tank force, that at least gets modern equipment and we get some training
 
Why would anyone from Europe agree to that? They want their tanks in Europe so they are close at hand, not on another continent. Plus it is expensive to move pers and equipment back and forth. Why would they agree to subsidize our training while simultaneously degrading their ability to respond to respond to local threats?

That is why the British have pulled their armoured BG out of Suffield and now train in Oman. All their equipment is now forward deployed closer to where it may be useful.

NATO is already mad that we aren't financially pulling our weight. We would get laughed out of the room if we suggest they bear the cost of the equipping our army.
 
Or go one step farther. Throw in the towel....Hand the US the DND budget. US let Canadians join the US forces and be done with it. I would bet the average MP, the majority of Toronto population and current PM would be over joyed will never have to think about nasty things like guns and uniforms. Plus the added bonus of supercharging their favourite pass time of criticizing the US for everything without having to do anything about it.

So become a vasel state ?
 
Very few NATO armies have surplus tanks sitting around. You can count on 1 finger the countries.
 
The USA???
Happy Season 5 GIF by The Office
 
On the serious side of my so called thought. Some NATO countries being small geographical could actually use the space a Canadian base offers to do training so they could practice various drills without the worry of running out of range safety requirements.


Example Poland biggest joint traing base shared with the army and airforce is 340sq km . 1280 tanks soon to be parked in Poland . They could use a larger training base to operate in .


CFB Suffield is 8 Times that size

There are arguments for my idea.
 
On the serious side of my so called thought. Some NATO countries being small geographical could actually use the space a Canadian base offers to do training so they could practice various drills without the worry of running out of range safety requirements.


Example Poland biggest joint traing base shared with the army and airforce is 340sq km . 1280 tanks soon to be parked in Poland . They could use a larger training base to operate in .


CFB Suffield is 8 Times that size

There are arguments for my idea.
Poland isn’t going to move tanks away from Poland.
They will just make larger bases.

There is one country with excess tanks. It’s us your southern neighbor.
The vast majority of our excess tanks are in depots in Europe, designed to support conflicts in Europe.

Plus the 818 +remaining M1A1 SA that have been removed from service for disposal.
1268 M1A1 SA were slated for disposal.
Of those 450 have been refurbished and their DU armor packages removed, the 818 are expected to be either refurbished without DU, so export or cut up.

Of those 450:
150 were sold to Poland in advance of their M1A2 order
40 went to Germany and Poland to help train Ukraine
31 when to Ukraine, and another 38 are slated to go
The remaining 191 or so are expected to be divested via FMS/FMA (potentially Ukraine)
 
Hard to make larger bases if you do not have the land mass to get them from

Air space for training in some countries means for straight flights, more than 2 to 3 minutes you are turning so not to over fly your neighbors

The UK came to Canada to train so they could practice bigger operations and movements
 
Hard to make larger bases if you do not have the land mass to get them from

Air space for training in some countries means for straight flights, more than 2 to 3 minutes you are turning so not to over fly your neighbors

The UK came to Canada to train so they could practice bigger operations and movements
and would probably still be here if we were anyway close to contributing to the overall security. We're back requires concrete evidence and we have not provided any of it.
 
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