Canada-US Trade Relations

[Rifleman62]

The Liberals want negotiations to fail. Then Capt Canada can run on standing up to the evil Trump.

 

[Rifleman62]

The Head: read reply 393. Bet you a beer I am correct.

 

[Jarnhamar]

[quote author=Remius]
Once again, it does not matter one way or another.  Who cares.[/QUOTE]

I would imagine if you had dirt floors, no running water or working septic system you might be a little more insulted.


Maybe you don't care about the virtual signalling and throw away negotiation points for show and maybe I'm the only one that does. Some people are comfortable with hypocrisy, others not so much.


I think rifleman brings up a great point.
Lots of political points to be gained by being anti-trump, regardless of the issue. Trudeau might shit the NAFTA bed but it will be a win for the Liberals when they spin it so Trudeau is the heron for opposing the big bad Trump.

 

[GR66]

Once again, it does not matter one way or another.  Who cares.  it isn't stalling anything nor is it a point of contention nor is it a show stopper at this point.

There are some circles that want to see Trudeau fail and they want it to be because of some made up BS about it being about gender and indigenous rights because deep down those same circles hate the concept of those things to begin with so want the narrative to go there.

Sunset clause, dispute resolution, supply management and intellectual cultural protections.  Those are the real problems.

I know I'm going to hate myself for wading into this, but...

I agree that gender and indigenous rights are not the key issues that were facing NAFTA negotiations when they began.  Everyone know that it would be the meaty issues like the Sunset clause, dispute resolution, supply management and intellectual and cultural protections.

If that's the case then, and Team Canada KNEW that it was going to be a tough fight with a protectionist and confrontational President Trump, then why were our opening proposals on minor issues not proposals related to the real problems?  If we knew what they were going to try and nail us on, then why didn't we try to head them off at the pass by proposing solutions that deflect them from those issues? 

At the very least it looks like our side seriously misread the situation.

 

[Bird_Gunner45]

The Head: read reply 393. Bet you a beer I am correct.

So you'd prefer Canada cowtow Trump, who has proven that he doesn't feel agreements need to be adhered to?

 

[Jarnhamar]

So you'd prefer Canada cowtow Trump, who has proven that he doesn't feel agreements need to be adhered to?

Like our prime minister's 40 some broken campaign promises? Or are those not agreements.

Trudeau's campaign played big on gender equality and indigenous rights.
Once again we see how important those truly are to our government when push comes to shove.

 

[Cloud Cover]

At the very least it looks like our side seriously misread the situation.

100%, but you can't fault them for trying. They feel those things are the reasons why they were elected, and that they have place front and centre in a trade agreement. For some reason they feel it is what differentiates Libs from Cons, and so it serves a strong political purpose.

I was hoping that with NAFTA (2) that we could help the US with some of its Mexican migrant problem by taking our immigration and refugees quotas (a good part of the number anyway) and offering them employment visas and pathway to citizenship here, instead of dragging people from off-continent.  But does an immigration scheme like that belong in a trade agreement? Probably not.

 

[MARS]

The Head: read reply 393. Bet you a beer I am correct.

I would agree you are correct.  Just today the CBC has a eloquent and well written analysis/opinion piece on exactly that. 

Your post is coming across as just another dickhead troll though, that's what TheHead docked you milpoints for, I think.  Your post is why this particular board/thread is a colossal waste of bandwidth, representing a troglodyte-like descent of intelligent, articulate, informed discourse into childish, bullshit name calling like 'Capt Canada'.  Save that shit for the comment section of the CBC website, or Reddit or whatever.  Its too bad this once awesome website is beginning to suck a lot lately.

 

[Rifleman62]

No. It isn't cow towing, which is really naive statement IMHO. It's like saying everything is Harper's fault, or you are raciest if you disagree with a point of view. The US is our largest by far trading partner. They hold the big stick, not us. For the last 13 months Canada sent the Z team to negotiate with the experienced AAA team.

The intellectual cultural protections I think, is something new Canada threw in. Possibly it was there for the last 13 months.

Too bad our MSN is in bed with Trudeau. Notice, it appears to me, that the headlines of something not positive for the Trudeau government is: "Ottawa"; not "Trudeau's government", or the "Liberal government"? Remember Harper? Everything was "Harper". Note the photos on e.g. CBC web page of the hundreds at Trudeau's Saskatoon townhall the other day. Actually there were dozens. There is proof of this on the net.

Personally, I find it very humorous when people say they boycotting products from the US. Impossible. They obviously don't even watch TV, or listen to music, drive a vehicle, drink a double double, eat fresh fruit/veg in the winter, etc, etc.

Say what you will re Trump, but he is getting things done, while Canada's economy is sliding downward, investment is leaving.

The Liberals do what's best for the Liberals: what's good for Canada maybe secondary (after the liberal bagmen are looked after  )

Personally I am sick of Trudeau's shtick of loose tie, partially rolled up sleeves. His idea of a middle income man of the people. Something he never was, and will never be. His voice, his attempt at speech is aggravating.

When you elect a part time drama teacher, snowboarder, what you get is Canada going downhill, fast.

Rant.

 

[Bird_Gunner45]

No. It isn't cow towing, which is really naive statement IMHO. It's like saying everything is Harper's fault, or you are raciest if you disagree with a point of view. The US is our largest by far trading partner. They hold the big stick, not us. For the last 13 months Canada sent the Z team to negotiate with the experienced AAA team.

The intellectual cultural protections I think, is something new Canada threw in. Possibly it was there for the last 13 months.

Too bad our MSN is in bed with Trudeau. Notice, it appears to me, that the headlines of something not positive for the Trudeau government is: "Ottawa"; not "Trudeau's government", or the "Liberal government"? Remember Harper? Everything was "Harper". Note the photos on e.g. CBC web page of the hundreds at Trudeau's Saskatoon townhall the other day. Actually there were dozens. There is proof of this on the net.

Personally, I find it very humorous when people say they boycotting products from the US. Impossible. They obviously don't even watch TV, or listen to music, drive a vehicle, drink a double double, eat fresh fruit/veg in the winter, etc, etc.

Say what you will re Trump, but he is getting things done, while Canada's economy is sliding downward, investment is leaving.

The Liberals do what's best for the Liberals: what's good for Canada maybe secondary (after the liberal bagmen are looked after  )

Personally I am sick of Trudeau's shtick of loose tie, partially rolled up sleeves. His idea of a middle income man of the people. Something he never was, and will never be. His voice, his attempt at speech is aggravating.

When you elect a part time drama teacher, snowboarder, what you get is Canada going downhill, fast.

Rant.

So, because they hold "the big stick" we should just be beholden to them? Moreover, why would Canada or any other nation want to deal with a US president who has shown that he is willing to just rip up any agreement?

The damage that Trump does to the US is long term for a limited short term gain. The entire US hegemony is based on negotiations, agreements, the rule of law, and other nations being willing partners in this enterprise. This goes from political measures such as the Monroe Doctrine to economic agreements such as Bretton Woods and the IMF, to the use of soft power such as movies and music.

Trump, through his actions, is presenting America as a nation which no longer follows agreements but employs a "might is right" way of the world, an image where they "speak loudly and carry a big stick". This goes against the nature of the US and the historical and real strength of its power and influence in the global community. And for what? A GDP growth lower than Obama mustered (Trumps "record growth" would be Obama's 5th best- 5.1% in Q2 2014, 4.9% Q3 2014, 4.7% in Q4 2011, and 4.5% in Q4 2009)?

The Canadian government must do what is right for Canada and not care about Trump at all. We are their largest trading partner as well and their largest source of oil. They can't simply cut the rope. I think its naive to believe that the rest of the world hasn't taken note of the US actions. Perhaps the EU makes a deal with Trump and just cancels it when it's convenient. Like a North Korean nuclear deal....

 

[Bird_Gunner45]

Like our prime minister's 40 some broken campaign promises? Or are those not agreements.

Trudeau's campaign played big on gender equality and indigenous rights.
Once again we see how important those truly are to our government when push comes to shove.

Trudeau's broken promises or abject failure aren't the subject of this particular thread. Trump's breaking of international treaties does however relate in a very real sense to international trade agreements.

The gender equality and indigenous rights being built into NAFTA were clearly childish. Chapter 19 is important. Supply management could be taken away.

 

[Jarnhamar]

Trudeau's broken promises or abject failure aren't the subject of this particular thread.

Personally I believe those along with our countries current foreign affairs and negeoiations team very much play into this threads theme. Including opening thrown away clauses. It adds insult to injury for people that actually believe in it.

The gender equality and indigenous rights being built into NAFTA were clearly childish.

Exactly. The government shouldn't be given a pass for that behavior, especially considering what's at stake.

Chapter 19 is important. Supply management could be taken away.

Agreed.

 

[jmt18325]

It's worth pointing out that other recent agreements we've signed, like CETA, the CPTPP, and the agreement with some South American countries all have the chapters on gender, climate, and indigenous rights.  Those negotiations started before the Trudeau government.  It's clear no one is inserting them as a 'joke'.

 

[FJAG]

Here's hoping this isn't just wishful thinking:

Canada, U.S. have reached a NAFTA deal, senior Canadian source says

https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/nafta-finale-sunday-deadline-trump-1.4844623

https://business.financialpost.com/news/economy/theyre-in-the-final-strokes-canada-and-u-s-make-key-concessions-as-deal-in-sight-sources-say

:cheers:

 

[tomahawk6]

This is also being reported in the States.NAFTA IS ALIVE !! 

https://www.msn.com/en-us/money/markets/canada-us-reach-deal-to-save-nafta-as-trilateral-trade-pact/ar-BBNLRde?ocid=spartanntp

 

[FJAG]

This is also being reported in the States.NAFTA IS ALIVE !! 

https://www.msn.com/en-us/money/markets/canada-us-reach-deal-to-save-nafta-as-trilateral-trade-pact/ar-BBNLRde?ocid=spartanntp

Apparently it's being renamed the US Mexico Canada Agreement or USMCA now. Doesn't really trip off the tongue, does it?  ;D

:cheers:

 

[Remius]

Details are still emerging but it looks like:

Chapter 19 dispute resolution remains intact.

Cultural protections remain intact.

No sunset clause.

All wins for Canada.

In exchange for:  more US access to the dairy industry similar to what was conceded with CETA.

But no protection against retaliatory tariffs although it seems that Canada has manage dans to get some degree against auto tariffs.

Overall it looks like Canada can claim a good win on this. 

 

[brihard]

Details are still emerging but it looks like:

Chapter 19 dispute resolution remains intact.

Cultural protections remain intact.

No sunset clause.

All wins for Canada.

In exchange for:  more US access to the dairy industry similar to what was conceded with CETA.

But no protection against retaliatory tariffs although it seems that Canada has manage dans to get some degree against auto tariffs.

Overall it looks like Canada can claim a good win on this.

Yup, looks like we have come through this about as well as we could have hoped. The concessions on dairy are quite reasonable, and the auto sector tariff exemptions are an important plus. As much distaste as I have for our current government, they stood their ground against a bully and appear to have done very well on this file.

 

[mariomike]

Overall it looks like Canada can claim a good win on this.

I do not read much on international trade, so thanks for the explanation.

 

[SeaKingTacco]

For the sake of all Canadians, I did not want to see the Liberals fail on this file, but it does seem that they got an ok deal inspite of themselves.