CAN Secur/Int Committee: Time to Fix RCMP Federal Policing pgm

[Remius]

Is there somewhere to read the policy or law for this agreement. I am curious as to swearing in the RCMP.

It’s in the Ontario Police Services Act. There is a section on special constables that deals with appointments and swearing in. And another section for Emergencies that is a more defined giving the province the ability to bring in outside assistance either from the feds or other provinces.

I may be wrong but I think those are the sections it would fall under.

 

[CBH99]

In Alberta, that idea gets suggested and some rumours start circulating every few years. And every few years, the idea is ultimately quashed based on both the cost of starting up a provincial police service, and loyalty to the idea of Canada & the RCMP.

If that idea were to ever materialize, I am almost certain the Alberta Sheriffs would be the agency to grow into the role.

We already do courthouse security & prisoner transport, inter-facility transport, have the 'Highway Patrol' (aka a dedicated traffic section), investigative units, and members assigned to ASIRT as well as a few other inter-agency units, etc

One thing we don't do is respond to 911 calls (unless traffic related on a provincial highway, as our traffic enforcement does have some integration with the RCMP - I'm not too familiar with the specific details)




In Alberta, as far as I know from personal experience, I haven't heard any serious complaints about the RCMP at all.

The firearm confiscation during the High River flood a few years back certainly didn't help the RCMP's image, but I also understand the explanation given & personally found it pretty reasonable. Other than a small handful of people who were quite vocal about it, I don't think a lot of people were as fussed as the media portrayed.

 

[WLSC]

It’s way more digging than I’m willing to do myself, but I’m curious what the ‘cop to pop’ ratio is between jurisdictions policed by OPP and SQ, versus other provinces that are RCMP, if you control for municipalities that have their own services. And similarly, how much those provincial police (including contracts) are subsidized by provincial tax bases in municipalities that have their own service; e.g., do Calgary, Edmonton etc net subsidize Alberta RCMP, or does the GTA and regional municipalities subsidize OPP.

Any decision on policing transition will in large part depend on the bottom line cost. Every jurisdiction is paying for policing one way or another already, but there’s a ton of nitty gritty there. Someone already mentioned that the feds subsidize RCMP contracts. It would be tough to argue they should directly subsidize municipal or provincial police, but then the reality of that means a fairly significant cost currently borne by the federal government is getting downloaded. Policing is already one of the most significant municipal budget items. It would be a tough pill to swallow.

Add to that that the RCMP is always the best paid in Canada.

 

[WLSC]

And every few years, the idea is ultimately quashed based on both the cost of starting up a provincial police service, and loyalty to the idea of Canada & the RCMP.

I dont see any lack of loyalty to have your own provincial police force. They apply the same law everywhere in their own jurisdiction.

 

[brihard]

Add to that that the RCMP is always the best paid in Canada.

That’s not accurate by a long shot. This site is compiled by a Canadian police officer who gathers and compares collective agreements and interest arbitrations. The list shows the base salary for a Constable 1st Class- generally three to four years of service, when a new constable first sees their base salary top out and stabilize independent of other incentives or allowances that can vary significantly between services. RCMP are sitting at number 53, about 8% below the few at the top- all of which are neighbouring jurisdictions and communities (or, in the case of Surrey, shared), so it’s directly comparable. Granted, those are newly signed collective agreements, and the Mounties’ collective has expired. But this site’s great for seeing what the tide looks like.

The Repository

A listing of police salaries in Canada

therepository.ca

 

[Kirkhill]

It’s way more digging than I’m willing to do myself, but I’m curious what the ‘cop to pop’ ratio is between jurisdictions policed by OPP and SQ, versus other provinces that are RCMP, if you control for municipalities that have their own services. And similarly, how much those provincial police (including contracts) are subsidized by provincial tax bases in municipalities that have their own service; e.g., do Calgary, Edmonton etc net subsidize Alberta RCMP, or does the GTA and regional municipalities subsidize OPP.

Any decision on policing transition will in large part depend on the bottom line cost. Every jurisdiction is paying for policing one way or another already, but there’s a ton of nitty gritty there. Someone already mentioned that the feds subsidize RCMP contracts. It would be tough to argue they should directly subsidize municipal or provincial police, but then the reality of that means a fairly significant cost currently borne by the federal government is getting downloaded. Policing is already one of the most significant municipal budget items. It would be a tough pill to swallow.

De Nada

	Police	Population	Pop/Cop
Provinces
Prince Edward Island	226	172,707	764
New Brunswick	1281	820,786	641
Newfoundland and Labrador	879	528,818	602
Ontario	26215	15,262,660	582
British Columbia	9293	5,368,266	578
Alberta	8007	4,601,314	575
Nova Scotia	1874	1,030,953	550
Manitoba	2582	1,420,228	550
Quebec	16277	8,751,352	538
Saskatchewan	2378	1,205,119	507
Average			589
Federal Territories
Yukon	140	43,964	314
Nunavut	151	40,586	269
Northwest Territories	195	45,602	234
Average			272

And on the Area/Cop ratio

	Police	Area	Area/Cop
Provinces
Newfoundland and Labrador	879	373,872	425
Saskatchewan	2378	591,670	249
Manitoba	2582	553,556	214
British Columbia	9293	925,186	100
Quebec	16277	1,365,128	84
Alberta	8007	642,317	80
New Brunswick	1281	71,450	56
Ontario	26215	917,741	35
Nova Scotia	1874	53,338	28
Prince Edward Island	226	5,660	25
Average			130
Federal Territories
Nunavut	151	1,936,113	12822
Northwest Territories	195	1,183,085	6067
Yukon	140	474,391	3389
Average			7426

First observation

- The police aren't in the business of securing the land, especially in the Territories.
That has to be the job of the CAF.

Second observation

- The people of the Territories have about twice as many police securing their communities as those in the Provinces.
Probably due to the widely scattered populations

Third observation

- Pop/Cop ratio is 589 on average with Saskatchewan having the most heavily policed population at 507 people per officer. PEI is the least.


Ontario and Quebec are in the middle of the pack with Alberta right dead centre

 

[brihard]

De Nada

	Police	Population	Pop/Cop
Provinces
Prince Edward Island	226	172,707	764
New Brunswick	1281	820,786	641
Newfoundland and Labrador	879	528,818	602
Ontario	26215	15,262,660	582
British Columbia	9293	5,368,266	578
Alberta	8007	4,601,314	575
Nova Scotia	1874	1,030,953	550
Manitoba	2582	1,420,228	550
Quebec	16277	8,751,352	538
Saskatchewan	2378	1,205,119	507
Average			589
Federal Territories
Yukon	140	43,964	314
Nunavut	151	40,586	269
Northwest Territories	195	45,602	234
Average			272

And on the Area/Cop ratio

	Police	Area	Area/Cop
Provinces
Newfoundland and Labrador	879	373,872	425
Saskatchewan	2378	591,670	249
Manitoba	2582	553,556	214
British Columbia	9293	925,186	100
Quebec	16277	1,365,128	84
Alberta	8007	642,317	80
New Brunswick	1281	71,450	56
Ontario	26215	917,741	35
Nova Scotia	1874	53,338	28
Prince Edward Island	226	5,660	25
Average			130
Federal Territories
Nunavut	151	1,936,113	12822
Northwest Territories	195	1,183,085	6067
Yukon	140	474,391	3389
Average			7426

First observation

- The police aren't in the business of securing the land, especially in the Territories.
That has to be the job of the CAF.

Second observation

- The people of the Territories have about twice as many police securing their communities as those in the Provinces.
Probably due to the widely scattered populations

Third observation

- Pop/Cop ratio is 589 on average with Saskatchewan having the most heavily policed population at 507 people per officer. PEI is the least.


Ontario and Quebec are in the middle of the pack with Alberta right dead centre

For purpose of meaningful comparisons, you’d need to excise all the municipalities with their own police services so we could actually compare what new provincial policing arrangements would look like.

 

[WLSC]

That’s not accurate by a long shot. This site is compiled by a Canadian police officer who gathers and compares collective agreements and interest arbitrations. The list shows the base salary for a Constable 1st Class- generally three to four years of service, when a new constable first sees their base salary top out and stabilize independent of other incentives or allowances that can vary significantly between services. RCMP are sitting at number 53, about 8% below the few at the top- all of which are neighbouring jurisdictions and communities (or, in the case of Surrey, shared), so it’s directly comparable. Granted, those are newly signed collective agreements, and the Mounties’ collective has expired. But this site’s great for seeing what the tide looks like.

The Repository

A listing of police salaries in Canada

therepository.ca

My bad then. I was under that impression. Last time I had a look at it, it was 3-4 years ago when one of my son considered entering in the RCMP.

 

[brihard]

My bad then. I was under that impression. Last time I had a look at it, it was 3-4 years ago when one of my son considered entering in the RCMP.

You’ve gotta have something else in mind then. 3-4 years ago their pay was far, far lower until they signed their first collective agreement in 2021. The RCMP were way below most other police services then. They got a contract that brought them up to about parity at the time of signing. Typically in the police universe we’re all in 3-4 year collective bargain agreement cycles, so the top paid services are usually those who most recently signed. When RCMP signed they didn’t set a high water mark, but it did put them on the same playing field. Which actually brings this back on topic- anecdotally I’m hearing of a lot of municipal officers in Ontario and Quebec getting poached from street policing into direct entry to federal policing positions.

 

[RedFive]

My bad then. I was under that impression. Last time I had a look at it, it was 3-4 years ago when one of my son considered entering in the RCMP.

When I joined in 2017 we were 147th nation wide in pay. We've since Unionized and had a collective agreement, so we're doing much better and come in at 53rd. The list is available here:

Top 100 Police pay in Canada

 

[childs56]

In Alberta, that idea gets suggested and some rumours start circulating every few years. And every few years, the idea is ultimately quashed based on both the cost of starting up a provincial police service, and loyalty to the idea of Canada & the RCMP.

If that idea were to ever materialize, I am almost certain the Alberta Sheriffs would be the agency to grow into the role.

We already do courthouse security & prisoner transport, inter-facility transport, have the 'Highway Patrol' (aka a dedicated traffic section), investigative units, and members assigned to ASIRT as well as a few other inter-agency units, etc

One thing we don't do is respond to 911 calls (unless traffic related on a provincial highway, as our traffic enforcement does have some integration with the RCMP - I'm not too familiar with the specific details)




In Alberta, as far as I know from personal experience, I haven't heard any serious complaints about the RCMP at all.

The firearm confiscation during the High River flood a few years back certainly didn't help the RCMP's image, but I also understand the explanation given & personally found it pretty reasonable. Other than a small handful of people who were quite vocal about it, I don't think a lot of people were as fussed as the media portrayed.

If Alberta wants a Provincial Police Force the best chance they have is to create a Sheriffs branch similar to many US states. They can work alongside the RCMP until such time as we have a large enough force to take over.
Training is the number one reason we would not be able to attain any level of force in a timely manner. Calgary and Edmonton do not have surge capacity, the current Provincial Training facility is no where adequate to provide a full level training facility for that many people.
They could sign an agreement with the RCMP to provide training at Depot then we could make it work. But that will hurt a few feelings provincially and cause lots of flack.
I am sure we could entice enough RCMP Officers to badge over to start the ball rolling and make it viable in the short term. But we would need to step up pension plan, wages, training and offer a all in one service with all the resources at their disposal. Money money money.

We go back to the a Training Facility or lack there of. I heard Sask was looking at the feasibility at a lease program for the RCMP Depot if they decide to shut down part or all of the Facility. Not sure if it could open up some possible training program for Western Canada with a full fledged Peace Officer/ Police/ First Responder training academy similar to Bc's JIBC. That might be a decent deal if we could make a deal and the RCMP actually do decide to shut or scale it down.

Either way if Ab,Bc or another province wants a Provincial Police force from scratch then they are going to have to pony up a few bucks to make it happen, along with solid plan with dedicated realistic time frame for implementation.

 

[brihard]

I am sure we could entice enough RCMP Officers to badge over to start the ball rolling and make it viable in the short term. But we would need to step up pension plan, wages, training and offer a all in one service with all the resources at their disposal. Money money money.

This may not be as likely as you think. Surrey thought the same but that hasn’t really borne out - @RedFive could speak to that better. There are a lot of relatively junior RCMP members in some pretty isolated or remote parts of Alberta who would probably be happy to take advantage of a workforce adjustment situation to take preferential postings in other provinces, slide into federal policing units, etc. any provincial policing transition would need to plan, right from the start, to hire pretty aggressively. With that said, they also would be free to try new things, maybe expanded hubbing with rotational fly-in/fly-out models so they can live and have families in larger communities and work blocks of shifts in smaller communities that can be tough to entice people to. Not many kids are coming out of police foundations or criminology chomping at the bit to go to Assumption or Wabasca-Desmarais.

 

[WLSC]

You’ve gotta have something else in mind then. 3-4 years ago their pay was far, far lower until they signed their first collective agreement in 2021. The RCMP were way below most other police services then. They got a contract that brought them up to about parity at the time of signing. Typically in the police universe we’re all in 3-4 year collective bargain agreement cycles, so the top paid services are usually those who most recently signed. When RCMP signed they didn’t set a high water mark, but it did put them on the same playing field. Which actually brings this back on topic- anecdotally I’m hearing of a lot of municipal officers in Ontario and Quebec getting poached from street policing into direct entry to federal policing positions.

When I joined in 2017 we were 147th nation wide in pay. We've since Unionized and had a collective agreement, so we're doing much better and come in at 53rd. The list is available here:

Top 100 Police pay in Canada

I never research that prior to today. I assumed (making the as... part real) that it was the case because I was told so and it seams pretty logical to me. I'm a bit skock but more I rad your answers, less surprise I am.

 

[WLSC]

Either way if Ab,Bc or another province wants a Provincial Police force from scratch then they are going to have to pony up a few bucks to make it happen, along with solid plan with dedicated realistic time frame for implementation.

Of course they will but they will be also able to recruit/encourage transfer in the new force. They would not totally start from scratch but the transition must be well done. The hard part will be to create a genuine force identity, etc. A couples of years ago (20+) we had some of that over here in QC when the government limited the number of municipal police force according to the size of the towns. The SQ had to absorbe a lot of officers from a lot of small police forces.

 

[lenaitch]

anecdotally I’m hearing of a lot of municipal officers in Ontario and Quebec getting poached from street policing into direct entry to federal policing positions.

Interesting. I haven't heard anything like that but, admittedly, am quite out of any loops. I'm wondering if they sorted out pension portability. It was a sticking point for years even within Ontario between the OPP and municipals, but that finally got sorted out. I hadn't heard if they had sorted it out with the RCMP.

GTA and regional municipalities subsidize OPP

They do not, except through general taxation. There are certain services provided by the OPP that are considered 'provincial', such as tactical, aviation, Kings highways, etc. so a municipality doesn't pay those; they are funded from provincial tax revenues. There is no line item in a municipal balance sheet for 'OPP' if they maintain their own police service.

The OPP budget 'income' essentially comes from two areas; municipal contract dollars and provincial money to police those provincial areas of responsibility as well as general law enforcement in areas that lack an organized municipality. In reality, it all comes from the province since municipal contracts are between the municipality and the Ministry. Peppered in there might be any federal or provincial grants that they are eligible for, plus any provincial funding for special initiatives.

If Alberta wants a Provincial Police Force the best chance they have is to create a Sheriffs branch similar to many US states.

Other than the same word, I don't think there is much comparison between what I understand the Alberta (and Sask.?) Sheriff services to US county sheriff departments, much like there is little comparison between provincial and state police services.

Either way if Ab,Bc or another province wants a Provincial Police force from scratch then they are going to have to pony up a few bucks to make it happen, along with solid plan with dedicated realistic time frame for implementation.

I would argue that it will be much, much more than a "few bucks". Beyond the hiring and equipping of bodies, the upfront cost to establish a stand-alone service is significant, particularly in specialized areas such as forensics and dedicated major crime. Services like telecom/911 alone for a deployed area would be millions of dollars. The might be able to negotiate parts of the existing RCMP systems, maybe.

 

[RedFive]

Surrey police got a bunch of members from us and other forces by promising them the sun, moon and stars as far as pay and benefits and positions within the new police force. They also were advertised throughout their implementation as being a patrol focused, boots on the ground, community oriented police force.

They then showed up on patrol, seconded to the RCMP and under RCMP command under the very framework they agreed to, and generally acted like a bunch of toxic assholes trying to wrestle command and control away from the RCMP at every turn. "We don't do things that way" is a common refrain, as is "your (RCMP) tactics put our officers in danger"

This has caused them a big problem. They hired lots of admin and plainclothes cops, none of whom want to the on the road. They have been told by the RCMP they will take over the road before the support units, because that was what the advertised themselves as. They have been such toxic assholes to the RCMP members on the road that none of us will move over. None of the people they hired to be plainclothes or admin want to work the road. And nobody, RCMP included, can hire enough cops anywhere in Canada.

Which leaves them in a tough spot. I don't have the actual numbers, but my understanding is they have more people quitting and returning to their previous employers or quitting police work altogether than they can hire and are currently having to explain to the Province, City and RCMP why their grand plan to "take over within 8 months of the provincial announcement" when they were chosen to go ahead has utterly failed. I've also consistently heard that plan was "we hope 275 Surrey Mounties quit and come over and all agree to work patrol". It really doesn't help that the people who return to their previous employers bring with them the horror stories and warn off other potential experienced hires.

In any case, that useless collection of six figure salaried cops who refuse to do police work is commonly referred to as the "Pond Patrol" by RCMP members, because they can commonly be found at the little city-run Cafe called "Occasions at the Pond" between the Detachment and the Provincial courthouse, not doing anything.

Everything's fine.

 

[dapaterson]

Everything's fine.

 

[WLSC]

Surrey police got a bunch of members from us and other forces by promising them the sun, moon and stars as far as pay and benefits and positions within the new police force. They also were advertised throughout their implementation as being a patrol focused, boots on the ground, community oriented police force.

They then showed up on patrol, seconded to the RCMP and under RCMP command under the very framework they agreed to, and generally acted like a bunch of toxic assholes trying to wrestle command and control away from the RCMP at every turn. "We don't do things that way" is a common refrain, as is "your (RCMP) tactics put our officers in danger"

This has caused them a big problem. They hired lots of admin and plainclothes cops, none of whom want to the on the road. They have been told by the RCMP they will take over the road before the support units, because that was what the advertised themselves as. They have been such toxic assholes to the RCMP members on the road that none of us will move over. None of the people they hired to be plainclothes or admin want to work the road. And nobody, RCMP included, can hire enough cops anywhere in Canada.

Which leaves them in a tough spot. I don't have the actual numbers, but my understanding is they have more people quitting and returning to their previous employers or quitting police work altogether than they can hire and are currently having to explain to the Province, City and RCMP why their grand plan to "take over within 8 months of the provincial announcement" when they were chosen to go ahead has utterly failed. I've also consistently heard that plan was "we hope 275 Surrey Mounties quit and come over and all agree to work patrol". It really doesn't help that the people who return to their previous employers bring with them the horror stories and warn off other potential experienced hires.

In any case, that useless collection of six figure salaried cops who refuse to do police work is commonly referred to as the "Pond Patrol" by RCMP members, because they can commonly be found at the little city-run Cafe called "Occasions at the Pond" between the Detachment and the Provincial courthouse, not doing anything.

Everything's fine.

Sadly, white tower/turf mentality/new kids on the block attitude is the worst that can happened and the sure thing that will happened when a switch like that is done, even mor when hope IS the planning process, you have what you worked for.

 

[Booter]

The cop to pop relationship in RCMP detachments is substantially different than the graphs. They are diluted by large municipalities.

Northern Manitoba for example is more 1 to 800. The territorial cop to pop is diluted its own ways- fly in detachment of 90 people with three police officers skews things wildly.

I received some info on the Surrey transition that led me to believe that it’ll continue on for some time. I think the grande prairie transition will be completed before that. But they have one potential scandal in the pipe themselves soooooo….

We ll see.

 

[Good2Golf]

When I joined in 2017 we were 147th nation wide in pay. We've since Unionized and had a collective agreement, so we're doing much better and come in at 53rd. The list is available here:

Top 100 Police pay in Canada

Red, slight tangent…wow, I thought Peel, York and Durham consistently pulled in top coin…maybe their CBA is coming due soon?