British sailors arrested at gunpoint by Iranian navy.

[Teddy Ruxpin]

IAJG:

You were pretty blunt in quoting doctrine - to the point of using a mild expletive - and pretty blunt in stating what should and shouldn't have been said.  However, you're missing the nuances of military writing, particularly as part of direction:  "should" and "could" aren't the same as "must", "shall" and "will".  Note how carefully these are used in passage I've quoted.

Doctrine is there to be adapted to the circumstances at the time.  Geo's being a tad generous (OK, too generous), but you're being too doctrinaire.

 

[KevinB]

Well I must be the chairman of the shoot it out community that Teddy describes  ;D

However I want it clear that I was NOT advocating a shoot first ask questiosn later approach -- I'm a big fan of overwhelming force at the begining of an incident (my studies have shown it works better to be the agressor in those situations).  However my main argument was in not acquising to the demands of the Iranians -- yes maybe IF I had been the boarding party commander there would have been a shooting war.  But I would have attempted a Mexican standoff, and hopefully allowed Friendly forces to have manuvered into a better supporting position- to make the Iranian situation untenable.

 I will NEVER surrender my weapon - I was in a Platoon with a member that had joined the PPCLI after being a reservist on the R22eR tour that surrendered their weapons and kit to the Serbs and where detained -- after hearing what happened to them -- I will go out in a big flaming mess of thermite grenade and frag before that happens to myself or men under my control -- especially if there is a female under care.   There are somethings worth dying for - and some cases going to war over if necessary.  ANYTIME you deploy forces you need to be aware of that.

The US may wave its dick around the world in a manner that upsets people -- but sometime doing the right thing comes with gut wrenching consequences.

 

[tomahawk6]

LS Turney was under duress when she made her statement period. In the video there shots of Turney smoking a cigarette. She is a non-smoker. Either she is trying to send a message or the pressure on her has forced her to take up smoking. I like her spirit.

US POW's in Vietnam and in the Pueblo incident found ways to send messages and to take advantage of these propaganda sessions. They were later punished when the bad guys found out they were being made fun of.These are examples of resisting your captors.It has also been found that your chances of survival improve if you are photographed while in captivity.

 

[I_am_John_Galt]

Doctrine is there to be adapted to the circumstances at the time.

Yes, of course.

Geo's being a tad generous (OK, too generous),

That's what I was trying to say.

but you're being too doctrinaire.

I quoted the regs, because I don't have the cred. to call him on it outright.  Of course just about every 'grey' rule like this has to be interpreted in the context of any given circumstance (which is why I said that we can't judge the subject issue at this point), but the 'give-them-everything-they-ask-for-as-long-as-you-keep-your-fingers-crossed-behind-your-back' approach (which is how I, and it would appear some others, read Geo's post) is flat-out wrong (hence, the bluntness).

 

[Flip]

What I'm wondering, where is the EU?
It's been mentioned before and an  editorial in the Globe today points out that " EU solidarity"
might be proven a sham.  I'm more than a little frustrated with their tacit approval ( if not complicity )
with the likes of Saddam and Ahmedinejad. 

As painful as this is, Iran has lost some cred. over this, in europe, the Arab world and in Iran.   
The next round of sanctions Should be easier.
Some arm twisting was requred for the last Security council vote.

At some point Iranians will start to see through this crap and their government will be in no position to gain anything.
Once that occurs, The sailors come home. ( my speculation )

Personaly, I reserve my loathing for President Ahmedinejad.  He needs to be removed.
Without him all of this goes away.

 

[army outfitters]

He needs to be removed.
Without him all of this goes away.
You think so do you? Good luck with that, another marter for the cause???
He has been doing the same things since the hostage crisis of the early 80's?(of which he was directly involved) what makes you think he is going to change now? Do you not think they will replace him with another Ayatola Komeni? Which could be worse than what is already in place. It does not go away. Thinking like this only leads us down a dangerous path. Do I believe that sanctions will work? No. Do I believe somebody should take him out? Maybe. Do I believe the politicians which I have every faith in will screw it up?? For Sure!I don't have all the answers but I am sure yours is not the best one,


[/quote]

 

[Edward Campbell]

What I'm wondering, where is the EU?
It's been mentioned before and an  editorial in the Globe today points out that " EU solidarity"
might be proven a sham.  I'm more than a little frustrated with their tacit approval ( if not complicity )
with the likes of Saddam and Ahmedinejad. 

...

Some EU members are positively revelling in Britain’s discomfort. 

There is considerable anti-British sentiment in some EU capitals, some of it reflecting centuries of mistrust – perfidious Albion and all that.  There is also unhappiness with the degree to which Tony Blair, John Major and Margaret Thatcher divided the EU because, again and again, they put the Anglo-American special relationship ahead of European solidarity.

 

[GAP]

The British Political mindset is actually closer to the US's than to any of the countries comprising the EU. Germany probably comes closest.

 

[HeatRoca]

Iranians in iran are apparently protesting against the 15 sailors and want there release

http://www.cnn.com/2007/WORLD/meast/03/29/iran.uk.sailors/index.html

 

[Flip]

Army Outfitters

The EU are in a position to show Iran's government, the folly in their course.

I should have been clearer, The Ayatollahs WILL remove Ahmedinejad if he cannot function as president.

The last president was more moderate - less aggresive.
Ahmedinejad is a hard liner.  A more moderate president in Iran would be good for everyone.

Again this is a POLITICAL problem with a POLITICAL solution.

 

[Cdn Blackshirt]

Army Outfitters

The EU are in a position to show Iran's government, the folly in their course.

I should have clearer, The Ayatollahs WILL remove Ahmedinejad if he cannot function as president.

Ahmedinejad is a hard liner.  A more moderate president in Iran would be good for everyone.

Again this is a POLITICAL problem with a POLITICAL solution.

Ahmedinejad is a stooge.  Everything he says is as stage-managed as the "moderates" that are occassionally trotted out to say concialiatory things.

Seriously, do you honestly believe the Holocaust Denial Conference held in Iran was without the blessing of the mullahs?   

How about the missile programs?

How about the EFP's?

How about the Iranian Forces that are in Iraq?  Did they just decide to go on their own volution?  Rogue leaders?  Because we all know how tolerant Iran has been with dissidents and people who don't follow orders.   :

Bottom Line:  The only way there will be a POLITICAL solution is if the mullahs believe the MILITARY threat is very real and that they will undoubedly be harmed should they not change their current path(s).

I should add, by claiming that the political route is the only option, you are part of the problem because despots will never fear toothless diplomats.

There's a famous qoute that goes something to the effect of "Diplomacy is the art of deferring inevitable conflict, usually to a date and time most advantageous to the beligerant."

My recommendation to you is to read "The Art of War".  As soon as you read it, you will immediately garner many insights into how despots think and behave, and as a consequence how they must be treated.



Matthew.   

 

[time expired]

The Revolutionary Guard are real power in Iran.They control the country, even the economic
power is the hands of the Guard. The army is merely an relatively poorly equipped conscript
organization.When the Mullahs created it, they created a monster, one which even they have
difficulty controlling.This is also the reason that one hears such contradictory messages from
this regime.
                  Regards

 

[geo]

Well..... everyone is entitled to an opinion and it would appear that most have one different from I - not a problem.

I noted the quoted CF reference - interesting - I have always interpreted the application of this manual to be used when we are at war with a country.  If Iran (or any other country for that matter) is complaining that you & your crew have crossed their border, armed to the teeth - then, other than saying "whups, sorry for the missunderstanding" and we'll have our quartermaster check out the GPS receiver ASAP, there is very little that can be done on the Sailor/Marine level...

BTW,  if you were on Ex in Canadian waters and you have your RHIB boarded by the US Navy or Coast guard & they insist on bringing you in..... Would you clam up or cooperate to a reasonnable degree?

 

[Eids of March]

You know how when you're bargaining, and you shoot for the moon so that the other party will end up giving you what you really want? Maybe Iran still just wants '300' out of cinemas...

I'm still against it, because if we give the baby his bottle, they'll just pull this crap again.

 

[tomahawk6]

Here is something that will giv e you pause. The CO of the Cornwall reported to MOD that the crew was being taken by the Iranians and he was told to stand down !!

 

[TN2IC]

Here is something that will giv e you pause. The CO of the Cornwall reported to MOD that the crew was being taken by the Iranians and he was told to stand down !!

Well that says a lot there Tomahawk6. Thanks for the great information. So the CO was told to stand down by the MOD. That really makes you think now. Sounds like a political game now. A game that may take lives.

Regards,
TN2IC

 

[Flip]

There's a famous quote that goes something to the effect of "Diplomacy is the art of deferring inevitable conflict, usually to a date and time most advantageous to the belligerent."

My recommendation to you is to read "The Art of War".  As soon as you read it, you will immediately garner many insights into how despots think and behave, and as a consequence how they must be treated.

Matthew.   

Matthew,

I have read the art of war. One of the fundamental rules is " NEVER get into a fight you can't win"
Given the current political situation, our own people (western democracies) won't let us win.

But aside from all that - 9 out of 10 times I agree with what you are saying. ( I think Saddam had to go )
The reason I suggest the political solution, if there is one(big if)
is that the current government of Iran is not very popular. This can be exploited.

And really I was talking near term anyway. I would like to see the hostages out before the west got too creative.

 

[MarkOttawa]

Britain vs. Iran: The EU's role
http://www.damianpenny.com/archived/009161.html

Mark
Ottawa

 

[tomahawk6]

It is very sad that our democrats have not been able to pass a resolution in support of the UK and its personnel now held hostage by Iran. The reason you might ask ? Majority Leader Pelosi refuses to allow it to come to the floor for a vote ! But they did pass a $400b tax increase !!

Congressman Eric Cantor wrote the following letter to Pelosi:

Dear Madam Speaker:

Fifteen kidnapped British marines and sailors recently became the latest victims of a systematic Iranian campaign of terror and international defiance. The illegal seizure of the British forces is a signal that Iran views us as powerless to prevent it from realizing its aggressive ambitions.

For the sake of our standing in the world, our allies and most importantly the 15 British personnel and their families, I urge you to bring H. Res. 267 to the floor today before we adjourn. The resolution calls for the immediate and unconditional release of the British marines and sailors. It would also call on the U.N. Security Council to not only condemn the seizure, but to explore harsher sanctions to counter the growing Iranian threat.

 

[geo]

Well that says a lot there Tomahawk6. Thanks for the great information. So the CO was told to stand down by the MOD. That really makes you think now. Sounds like a political game now. A game that may take lives.
Regards,
TN2IC

TN2IC
If they had offered the Iranians a "meet & greet" with guns blazing - there would certainly have been a cost in lives... you might rethink your position?