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British sailors arrested at gunpoint by Iranian navy.

Here is something that will giv e you pause. The CO of the Cornwall reported to MOD that the crew was being taken by the Iranians and he was told to stand down !!

Teddy Ruxpin said:
*snip*
...  There is every possibility that the Cornwall's CO was reacting to direction he was receiving from higher as the situation developed.
*snip*

Doesn't change a thing - the MOD made the right call, as did the CO who referred the question back for direction.  The fact that this was done is hardly reflective of a "political game" - these types of questions are often referred back for decision by higher authority.

Edit to correct snarky tone...
 
  MODERATOR POST

Folks, this is obviously a passionate issue with all of us, but just a reminder to keep it civil, above board and 'chest thumpless".....

It would be a shame to have to lock this but I will not hesitate if it so requires.
 
If one were to "chesthump"...........

I would like to see Sonic booms over Tehran through the night
until they relent. No violence just noise.

God-speed to the 15.





 
geo said:
Hey, these are Sailors and soldiers.
Is there any reason why they should limit themselves to the old "name, rank and SN" thing?
I don't think so.  There is no point in their facing extreme forms of interrogation and risk personal injury.
If the Iranians want them to say something - accomodate them & try to say your lines with a straight face (regardless of how silly the statement happens to be).
Everyone will know that what has been said has been said "under duress" and no one who matters will believe a single word.

As to wearing a Hijab?  what harm was there in accomodating the Iranian request?


Ahhhh ! Pink "geo", yes indeed that Attitude and Action seems very intresting and appropriate and should be adopted by all Western and UN Forces. Yes indeed, it would have been a great boon to the Prisoners at the Hanoi Hilton. Not to mention providing the VC with unlimited propaganda and possibly Classified Information.

Even though everyone on this side might consider that the Statement or Confessions were obtained under duress. That propaganda is not generated for information or justification for the Western World, its designed for the local Nationals and their Allies. (if my guess is not wrong).

For the countless American P.O.W.s of that Era, such a suggestion does them a great dishonor and any Serving Member of today's Armed Forces

Please I'll tell you anything or sign anything, please just don,t hurt me. great advice to be suggesting.

As for the Hijab, I guess it would of been just the same if the LS was asked to burn the Union Jack on Camera.
 
geo said:
TN2IC
If they had offered the Iranians a "meet & greet" with guns blazing - there would certainly have been a cost in lives... you might rethink your position?


- Some things are more important than life - that is why they issue us guns, right?

(Carefull Geo, I could be setting you up! ;))
 
Interesting article by Victor Davis Hanson. Essentially the nations of the EU and NATO have very little punching power beyond their own borders.

http://article.nationalreview.com/?q=MGNmMzdmOGM5OTlmMzMxZDAzYjBiZDc4NjI1NjViYzU=&w=MQ==
Houses of Straw
The EU’s delusions about the sufficiency of “soft” power are embarrassingly revealed.

By Victor Davis Hanson

‘It’s completely outrageous for any nation to go out and arrest the servicemen of another nation in waters that don’t belong to them.” So spoke Admiral Sir Alan West, former First Sea Lord of the Royal Navy, concerning the present Anglo-Iranian crisis over captured British soldiers. But if the attack was “outrageous,” it was apparently not quite outrageous enough for anything to have been done about it yet.

Sir Alan elaborated on British rules of engagement by stressing they are “very much de-escalatory, because we don’t want wars starting ... Rather than roaring into action and sinking everything in sight we try to step back and that, of course, is why our chaps were, in effect, able to be captured and taken away.”

One might suggest, not necessarily “sinking everything in sight,” but at least shooting back at a few of the people trying to kidnap Britain’s uniformed soldiers. But the view, apparently, is that stepping back and allowing some chaps to be “captured and taken away” is to be preferred to “roaring into action and sinking everything in sight.” The latter is more or less what Nelson did at the battle of the Nile, when he nearly destroyed the Napoleonic fleet.

The attack coincides roughly with Iran’s announcement that it will end its cooperation with U.N. non-proliferation efforts. That announcement was in reaction to a unanimous vote to begin embargoing some trade with Teheran of critical nuclear-related substances. With that move, Ahmadinejad is essentially notifying the world that Iran will go ahead and get the bomb — and let no one dare try to stop them.

If a non-nuclear Iran kidnaps foreign nationals in international waters, we can imagine what a nuclear theocracy will do. The Iranian thugocracy rightly understands that NATO will not declare the seizure of a member’s personnel an affront to the entire alliance.

Nor will the European Union send its “rapid” defense forces to insist on a return of the hostages. There is simply too much global worry about the price and availability of oil, too much regional concern over stability after Iraq, and too much national anxiety over the cost in lives and treasure that a possible confrontation would bring. Confrontation can be is avoided through capitulation, and no Western nation is willing to insist that Iran adhere to any norms of behavior.

Yet the problem is not so much a postfacto “What to do?” as it is a question of why such events happened in serial fashion in the first place.

The paradox now is that, just as no European nation wishes to be seen in solidarity with the United States, so too no European force wishes to venture beyond its borders without acting in concert with the American military, whether on the ground under American air cover or at seas with a U.S. carrier group.

There are reasons along more existential lines for why Iran acts so boldly. After the end of the Cold War, most Western nations — i.e., Europe and Canada — cut their military forces to such an extent that they were essentially disarmed. The new faith was that, after a horrific twentieth century, Europeans and the West in general had finally evolved beyond the need for war.

With the demise of fascism, Nazism, and Soviet Communism, and in the new luxury of peace, the West found itself a collective desire to save money that could be better spent on entitlements, to create some distance from the United States, and to enhance international talking clubs in which mellifluent Europeans might outpoint less sophisticated others. And so three post-Cold War myths arose justify these.

First, that the past carnage had been due to misunderstanding rather than the failure of military preparedness to deter evil.

Second, that the foundations of the new house of European straw would be “soft” power. Economic leverage and political hectoring would deter mixed-up or misunderstood nations or groups from using violence. Multilateral institutions — the World Court or the United Nations — might soon make aircraft carriers and tanks superfluous.

All this was predicated on dealing with logical nations — not those countries so wretched as to have nothing left to lose, or so spiteful as to be willing to lose much in order to hurt others a little, or so crazy as to welcome the “end of days.” This has proved an unwarranted assumption. And with the Middle East flush with petrodollars, non-European militaries have bought better and more plentiful weaponry than that which is possessed by the very Western nations that invented and produced those weapons.

Third, that in the 21st century there would be no serious enemies on the world stage. Any violence that would break out would probably be due instead to either American or Israeli imperial, preemptive aggression — and both nations could be ostracized or humiliated by European shunning and moral censure. The more Europeans could appear to the world as demonizing, even restraining, Washington and Tel Aviv, the more credibility abroad would accrue to their notion of multilateral diplomacy.

But even the European Union could not quite change human nature, and thus could not outlaw the entirely human business of war. There were older laws at play — laws so much more deeply rooted than the latest generation’s faddish notions of conflict resolution. Like Gandhi’s nonviolent resistance, which would work only against the liberal British, and never against a Hitler or a Stalin, so too the Europeans’ moral posturing seemed to affect only the Americans, who singularly valued the respect of such civilized moralists.

Now we are in the seventh year of a new century, and even after the wake-up call on 9/11, Westerners are still relearning each day that the world is a dangerous place. When violence comes to downtown Madrid, the well-meaning Spanish chose to pull out of Iraq — only to uncover more serial terrorist cells intent on killing more Spaniards.

To get their captured journalists freed, Italians paid Islamists bribes — and then found more Italians captured. When Germany, Britain, and France parleyed with Mahmoud Ahmadinejad (the “direct talks” that we in the states yearn for) to try to get Iran to cease its plans for nuclear proliferation, he politely ignored the “EU3.” The European Union is upset that Russian agents murder troublemakers inside the EU’s borders, and so registers its displeasure with the Cheshire Vladimir Putin.

The latest Iranian kidnapping of British sailors came after British promises to leave Iraq, and after the British humiliation of 2004, when eight hostages were begged back. Apparently the Iranians have figured either that London would do little if they captured more British subjects or that the navy of Lord Nelson and Admiral Jellico couldn’t stop them if it wanted to.

“London,” of course, is a misnomer, since the Blair government is an accurate reflection of attitudes widely held in both Britain and Europe. These attitudes have already been voiced by the public: this is understandable payback for the arrest of Iranian agents inside Iraq; this is what happens when you ally with the United States; this is what happens when the United States ceases talking with Iran.

The rationalizations are limitless, but essential, since no one in Europe — again, understandably — wishes a confrontation that might require a cessation of lucrative trade with Iran, or an embarrassing military engagement without sufficient assets, or any overt allegiance with the United States. Pundits talk of a military option, but there really is none, since neither Britain nor Europe at large possesses a military.

What does the future hold if Europe does not rearm and make it clear that attacks on Europeans and threats to the current globalized order have repercussions?

If Europeans recoil from a few Taliban hoodlums or Iranian jihadists, new mega-powers like nuclear India and China will simply ignore European protestations as the ankle-biting of tired moralists. Indeed, they do so already.

Why put European ships or planes outside of European territorial waters when that will only guarantee a crisis in which Europeans are kidnapped and held as hostages or used as bargaining chips to force political concessions?

Europe is just one major terrorist operation away from a disgrace that will not merely discredit the EU, but will do so to such a degree as to endanger its citizenry and interests worldwide and their very safety at home. Islamists must assume that an attack on a European icon — Big Ben, the Vatican, or the Eiffel Tower — could be pulled off with relative impunity and ipso facto shatter European confidence and influence. Each day that the Iranians renege on their promises to release the hostages, and then proceed to parade their captives, earning another “unacceptable” from embarrassed British officials, a little bit more of the prestige of the United Kingdom is chipped away.

In the future, smaller nations in dangerous neighborhoods must accept that in their crises ahead, their only salvation, even after the acrimonious Democratic furor over Iraq, is help from the United States.

America alone can guarantee the safety of the noble Kurds, should Turkey or Iran choose one day to invade. America alone will be willing or able to supply Israel with necessary help and weapons to ensure its survival.

Other small nations — a Greece, for example — with long records of vehement anti-Americanism should take note that the choice facing them in their rough neighborhoods is essentially solidarity with the United States or the embrace of Jimmy Carter diplomacy or Stanley Baldwin appeasement.

Quite simply, there is now no NATO, no EU, no U.N. that can or will do anything in anyone’s hour of need.
 
Very good post, but I expect there will be a flood of posts condemning it as neo con, pro Bush
propaganda. The truth however remains the truth,even though most people do not wish to
hear the truth, rather to have their preconceived ideas confirmed
                                          Regards
 
time expired said:
Very good post, but I expect there will be a flood of posts condemning it as neo con, pro Bush
propaganda. The truth however remains the truth,even though most people do not wish to
hear the truth, rather to have their preconceived ideas confirmed
                                           Regards

It's hardly the "truth" , it is neo-con rhetoric and is an prime example of why I (for one) felt it necessary to note the massive failure of US foreign policy in the past decade when addressing this specific issue.  If some are skeptical of the standard US approach, it is because they have felt betrayed and lied to by the US administration.

As many of my posts here will attest, I have little patience for the Eurotourist mentality that appears to characterize some nations on operations.  I will "go kinetic" (and have) at the drop of a hat - if the situation warrants.  However, there is a time and place for everything and the suggested "American" approach here is dead wrong (which is why I've been addressing US policy, S_Baker) and has proven to have been wrong repeatedly.

As indicated earlier, if posts similar to those now being made about the UK were being made about the US and US policy, I have no doubt that posters would be accused of trolling and that the dogpile would be underway.  Funny, eh?
 
It is notable that Victor Davis Hanson makes absolutely no mention of the P-3 incident in which a similar number of americans were captured by the chinese under similar circumstances. Possibly because it completely undermines the entire premise of his article. I find this is a common problem with his writting, he simply ignores any facts which don't fit his interpretation of reality.
 
I havent been unfair to the UK. I am critical of their ROE which endangers not only their personnel but also
those of allied nations.

Lets take a look at this VDH article that you dismiss out of hand. He seems to be pointing out a flaw in the UK ROE. One of the tenets of leadership is to take care of your men. The decision was made that it would be the safe course of action to do nothing. I can relate to this approach as we saw it in the Pueblo incident in 68 and the 79 embassy seizure. I can tell you in the case of the Pueblo senior naval officers were embarassed and angry. In the embassy seizure the nation was very angry, an anger that lingers today in fact. There is no doubt that the Iranians released the hostages the same day Reagan took office because they were fearful of reprisal. When the Iranians mined the waters of the Gulf Reagan had the Navy sink Iranian ships and other actions that are still classified. Peace through strength is something that the socialists of Europe/Canada/US have forgotten or chose not to acknowledge.

Hanson makes a great point here about Iran's intentions and capabilities. One that is deeply disturbing.

If a non-nuclear Iran kidnaps foreign nationals in international waters, we can imagine what a nuclear theocracy will do. The Iranian thugocracy rightly understands that NATO will not declare the seizure of a member’s personnel an affront to the entire alliance.

Confrontation can be avoided through capitulation, and no Western nation is willing to insist that Iran adhere to any norms of behavior.

He goes on to discuss the so called peace dividend that saw the militaries of the west downsized.Surely Teddy you cannot object to his facts or his conclusion ? I agree with it because I lived both the Carter post-Vietnam drawdown and the Clinton drawdown.I have been reading Canadian military forums for several years now and until the Harper government your complaints were many. No neocon agenda here.

Europe and even our own left in the US worship at the altar of multiculturalism.Multiculturalism has undermined the core values and culture of the west and unless its unchecked will be the undoing of us all. I am not a bible thumper by any stretch but I have seen where christian values are being eroded and this weakens the state. Gay rights, legalization of drugs, open borders, abortion on demand, lack of personal responsibility would ahve been scoffed at even 30 years ago. Some think its progress. It isnt. When we raise our kids we dont smile and tell them to do whatever they want. We expect them to obey our rules.In the US our leftists dont believe in borders or the use of military power.

After rereading this article I cannot see where any thinking human being can object the Hansons facts or conclusions. Just look at Iraq and Afghanistan. Look at the countries that supplied troops for Afghanistan but not Iraq. Then look at who is really doing the heavy lifting in Afghanistan. ROE's are the big dividing line between who wants to appear to be doing something and those that ARE doing something.

NATO needs to be abolished. Europe should be left to its own devices. There is too much jealousy among the major European powers to prevent them from working with the US. What is of strategic interest to the US is not shared. Europe will fall one day to their minority muslim populations thanks to multiculturalism and the moral bankruptcy of socialism.

The US is blamed for much of the worlds ills until there is a disaster and they want help. Or their country is overrun by some tyrant.Until we go big into coal/oil shale liquification we will be dependent on foreign oil.Right now we are in the middle east because of oil. No one reads the bible anymore but the last  battle on earth takes place in the middle east.Like it or not we must deal with the tyrants now or after they have nuclear weapons. I prefer now.






 
An interesting perspective from the British side, sort of explaining the actions of the RN.

Gwynne Dyer: Better that Iranians didn't go after Yanks
A similar attack on Americans could have led to casualties and an excuse for Bush to bomb Iran.

http://www.startribune.com/562/v-print/story/1086014.html

Rey
 
Iron Oxide said:
It is notable that Victor Davis Hanson makes absolutely no mention of the P-3 incident in which a similar number of americans were captured by the chinese under similar circumstances. Possibly because it completely undermines the entire premise of his article. I find this is a common problem with his writting, he simply ignores any facts which don't fit his interpretation of reality.

The Chinese didnt shoot down the P-3 did they ? The Chinese didnt force the plane to land in their territory did they ? In fact despite the declared in flight emergency the Chinese almost didnt allow the plane to land.
Very different circumstance to what we see in Iran today.
 
Rey said:
An interesting perspective from the British side, sort of explaining the actions of the RN.

Gwynne Dyer: Better that Iranians didn't go after Yanks
A similar attack on Americans could have led to casualties and an excuse for Bush to bomb Iran.

http://www.startribune.com/562/v-print/story/1086014.html

Rey

Story already posted on page 8, reply 115 by Baden Guy.

But I agree it is an interesting perspective.
 
Just another update on the ongoing situation. A "public apology"? For what? The two nations are not at war and the Brits were clearly within Iraqi waters, although nations like Iran often set their own arbitrary borders well past agreed international maritime sovereignty limits (In fact, mainland China actually claims all of the South China Sea up to the Spratley Islands).

Isn't their treament similar to the treatment of USN/USAF naval aviators/pilots shot down over Iraq during the First Gulf War/Desert Storm as well as the treatment of those US Army Apache pilots whose Apache had been brought down by Iraqi ground fire during Operation Iraqi Freedom's start in March 2003, leading to their capture? I mean "similar" as in their being coerced into making so-called "public apologies".

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070330/ap_on_...ea/iran_britain

Iran broadcasts British sailor's apology
By NASSER KARIMI, Associated Press Writer
2 hours, 58 minutes ago

TEHRAN, Iran - One of the 15 British service members held captive in Iran appeared Friday on the government's Arabic-language TV and apologized for entering Iranian waters "without permission." The Iranians meanwhile released a third letter allegedly by captured sailor Faye Turney, in which she said she has been "sacrificed" to the policies of the British and U.S. governments.

The Iranian Embassy in London criticized both Britain and the U.N. Security Council on Friday for becoming involved in the crisis.

Prior to the release of the third letter, British Prime Minister        Tony Blair, whose government has insisted that its navy personnel were captured in Iraqi waters, immediately denounced the broadcast and said it would only lead to further isolation for Iran. The standoff has added to tensions over Iran's nuclear ambitions and over allegations that Iran is arming Shiite Muslim militias in        Iraq.

"I don't know why the Iranian regime keeps doing this, all it does it heightens people's sense of disgust. Captured personel being paraded and manipulated in this way, it doesn't fool anyone," he said in a brief statement. "And what the Iranians have to realize is that if they continue in this way they will face continued isolation."

In the video Friday, Royal Marine rifleman Nathan Thomas Summers was shown sitting with another male serviceman and the female British sailor Faye Turney against a pink floral curtain. Both men wore camouflage fatigues with a label saying "Royal Navy" on their chests and a small British flag stitched to their left sleeves. Turney wore a blue jumpsuit and a black headscarf.

"Again I deeply apologize for entering your waters," Summers said in the clip broadcast on Al-Alam television. "We trespassed without permission."

The latest letter, addressed to the British people, said that Turney had been treated well, unlike the prisoners held by the at        Abu Ghraib prison in Iraq. "I'm writing to you as a British serviceperson who has been sent to Iraq, sacrificed due to the intervening policies of the Bush and Blair government," the letter said.

British Foreign Secretary Margaret Beckett, who also denounced the broadcast as "appalling," said a letter from Iran on the detention of the 15 sailors and marines had done nothing to bring the standoff to a close.

The Iranian Embassy's statement, made via e-mail, said the Security Council resolution was passed in violation of its own mandate and the principles of the U.N. charter. The matter should be settled bilaterally, it said.

"Attempts to engage the Security Council with this matter of purely bilateral nature are completely unacceptable, unwarranted and unjustifiable," the statement said.

The Iranian Embassy noted a 2004 incident in which a similar crisis was defused following negotiations between Britain and Iran, saying that British attempts to draw in third parties, including the Security Council, were "not helpful."

It said that Iran would continue to defend its territorial integrity, but that the country would respect its legal and moral commitments to the detainees, who it said were "safe, well and in good health."

 
TEDDY P.
          I agree with you insofar as the execution of some of these policies are concerned,however
I feel that I must support the basic premise that lies behind these policies,namely that a world of
democracies would be a much safer place to live in.Although the American s have retreated a little from
the idea that all democracies should necessarily mirror the US democracy.This is surely better than
the cold war policies of supporting any tin pot dictator who supplied a couple of bayonets to your side.
                                        Regards
 
The thing I find most noteworthy is the continuing lack of coverage on how unstable things might be in Iran.

With bombings and demonstrations happening inside Iran, none generating significant news coverage, with Ahmadinejad's term being reduced, with loss of seats for his faction in council, squabbles amongst Mullahs, gasoline prices rising, ethnic tensions, student and teacher revolts, Iranian Revolutionary Guard a world unto themselves, the place (to borrow an ancient phrase) is in a worse state than China.

The reason that the Iranian position on any issue constantly changes is less likely to be the result of some grand conspiracy than the result of on-going internal bargaining amongst various power factions - all of whom feel free to comment on the issues of the day.

Given the current fixation on the Argentinians and the Falklands it must have occured to some that Ahmadinejad is in the same position that Galtieri was in 25 years ago.  He seems to have started the same way.  Capturing Royal Marines.

2 Apr 82 - Argentinians invade Falklands and capture Marines
25 Apr 82 - Brits secure South Georgia
2 May 82 - Belgrano sunk
21 May 82 - Main Force lands at San Carlos, East Falklands.

3 weeks of negotiation to first low level military engagement
1 more week to up the ante with the Belgrano
3 more weeks to decisive military action.

We are just passing the Week 1 milestone.

In that case logistical necessity provided time for negotiations to be tried and shown to have failed (at least sufficient to convince the Brits that the effort had been made by their government).

In this case there is less of a logistical "excuse" to "allow" negotiations.  There are operating bases within range all around Iran's border.

Interestingly that also makes this situation very different from Jimmy Carter's screw up.  He had no suitable forces in the area.

All of which puts the political process into starker focus - the interested parties have no cover to hide negotiations.  If they wanted "action this day" they could have it.  About the only thing the government of the UK can use to "justify" a delay on a rescue attempt is lack of knowledge of the location of the hostages.  Risk to the hostages is covered by the fact that they are service personnel.  If they fail to act, or act and fail in the attempt then it bolsters Iran and the faction that took the Marines hostage in the first place.

Complicating the issue further, I believe, is the fact that Iran and Iraq have not finalized where their borders meet in the Shatt al Arab.

For a more current example, Operation Barras, the rescue of the 6 Royal Irish Rangers in Sierra Leone by SAS and Paras, their capture occured on Aug 24.  The rescue was effected on Sep 10.  Almost 3 weeks of preparation, recce and negotiation in a considerably less threatening environment.

Again....we are only in Week 1 and we are not sure who is in charge, whether this was planned or even sanctioned, and apparently don't know exactly where the service personnel are being held.

Time to Wait Out  I believe.



 
Juvat said:
Story already posted on page 8, reply 115 by Baden Guy.

Sorry, must have skimmed it when I was catching up, and didn't remember reading it.....
Kids cause C.R.S., that's my excuse, and I'm sticking with it.

Total speculation on my side here, but I remember reading an article a couple of days ago that indicated that some of the waters around Iraq/Iran are in dispute. Could the apology be used to substantiate claims for that region of water. I have no knowledge of International Law, so I'm tossing that one out to those who have a firmer grasp of the topic.

Rey
 
Disregarding my own advice.....Further to my last.

Just some thoughts on the problems that the Iranians may be finding themselves saddled with.

1.  Having detained service personnel, under debatable but potentially defendable circumstances, they have supplied Britain with a POTENTIAL casus belli.
2.  If they mistreat the service personnel they will move beyond the potential into the actual.
3.  Part of proving that they are not mistreating the personnel requires allowing them access to consular support.
4.  This means letting Brits know where they are.
5.  With a target the Brits are many steps closer to mounting an operation.
6.  If the Brits succeed then the regime looks weak.  Of course the Brits could fail or decide to do nothing in which case they look weak.

7.  To prevent recovery they have a number of options:

a  Keep all the service personnel together in one place and create one very hard target
b  Disperse them around the countryside at various bases, which could include nuclear sites
c  Disperse them around the civilian population which is in a very restive mood with stirrings of many signs of a resistance forming/operating.

Option c doesn't seem particularly secure because they risk losing their captives in dribs and drabs and even one Sailor or Marine returned home "by" or "with the assistance of"  Iranian resistance would be a major propaganda coup.

Option b would be the US's best case scenario as it would permit the launching of wide-scale "rescue" attempts on all Iranian military facilities starting with the defences at C&C facilities and nuclear sites.  It would be most unfortunate but defensible if most or all of the service personnel died during the rescue attempts.

Option a would seem to be about the best bet but it also presents the best bet for a successful rescue attempt, although the odds are likely to be long.

The problem with taking service personnel hostage is that there is no clause in their contract with their government that says the government must bring them home alive. 

Some of the Iranians might just be coming to that realization.

 
Fasteddy'

This horses#$t bsuiness with the "pink" is starting to bore me to high heaven

That you were an MP, you musta been tired of the MEATHEAD monicker.... soooo... knock it off

You may chose to dissagree with what I think
I may chose to dissagree with what you think
That's life

Ya got a problem with that?
 
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