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Blow money on parties for past wars, or invest in military capability and support to vets?

WeatherdoG said:
Maybe I've misjudged the general consensus here, but what I gather is people are angry that the government is celebrating significant battles that involved Canadian troops? Ones so significant that we as a nation built massive war memorials on foreign soil to commemorate?

I get that we are all angry about the lack of support for Veterans, and serving members but lets be clear here. If the money wasn't being spent on celebrating and honouring our past it would be wasted on yet another idiotic theatre project or some other cultural affair that really only appeals to the select few. At lest the government is highlighting the events that helped lead Canada to be the nation it is today.

Why don't we try dropping some of the cynicism and anger over the things that aren't bad, and focus on the things that matter. Things like the Navy not having boats, the army not having money to train properly, and the air force not having a replacement for the Buffalo yet... A few grand on some parades to honour our forefathers isn't a bad thing, it's not the best thing but it's not bad.


:goodpost:

Milpoints inbound.

You are exactly right. We all have Members of Parliament, we can all find their E-mail addresses here, we can all tell them that:

    1. We welcome tasteful* commemorations of past wars and battles; but

    2. We want action to meet the country's (not just the CF's) legitimate national defence needs: ships and sailors, trucks, helicopters, guns and soldiers, aircraft and the men and women to fly and support them.

____
* Tasteful, in my opinion, doesn't involve cheap, plastic pins and gee gaws.
 
E.R. Campbell said:
.... We all have Members of Parliament, we can all find their E-mail addresses here, we can all tell them that:

    1. We welcome tasteful* commemorations of past wars and battles; but

    2. We want action to meet the country's (not just the CF's) legitimate national defence needs: ships and sailors, trucks, helicopters, guns and soldiers, aircraft and the men and women to fly and support them.
Now that the celebration matrix appears to be laid out and announced, and the highest political bosses decided, can one really expect more of a response than:
- the boilerplate "we're supporting the troops, this is good for them and Canada;"
- with maybe a hint of, if your MP is Conservative, "if only those NDP and Liberals would vote for supporting the troops by voting for those omnibus bills that have troop stuff in them as well as all sorts of things they don't want but we do")?

Maybe here's another stat to throw in any such e-mail:  If the cost is still expected to be $30M, saving 1/3 to 1/2 of that may not buy new hardware, but could pay for, to pick only one standard of measurement ....
PPCLI Guy said:
300K will buy a week in the field for 1 CMBG.
.... between 33 and 50 weeks in the field for a brigade, or fewer weeks for more brigades - or whatever the equivalent of air or sea training, or combinations thereof.

E.R. Campbell said:
* Tasteful, in my opinion, doesn't involve cheap, plastic pins and gee gaws.
+1000 (even if it's too late for the 1812 pins - although you never know what can happen with enough political balls will).
 
WeatherdoG said:
If the money wasn't being spent on celebrating and honouring our past it would be wasted on ...
I am sorry, this false dichotomy is the biggest BS defence of a stupid waste.  The money absolutely could be spent on something productive and useful.  If government keeps costs low and manages to educate Canadians in the process, then by all means let's invest.  But, low costs may not be what are in the works.  Tax payers should demand that our money is all well spent.

WeatherdoG said:
... A few grand on some parades to honour our forefathers isn't a bad thing, it's not the best thing but it's not bad.
A few grand?  The 1812 thing has been estimated at $30 million and the coming spectacles are predicted to be more.  I have heard forecasts of half-million (public funds) for some military organizations' grand anniversaries in the works.
 
MCG said:
A few grand?  The 1812 thing has been estimated at $30 million and the coming spectacles are predicted to be more.  I have heard forecasts of half-million (public funds) for some military organizations' grand anniversaries in the works.

Ahem.  We're in the room....
 
PPCLI Guy said:
Ahem.  We're in the room....

I'd be interested in a source for the statement that Regiments are getting vast amounts of public funds.  I'm relatively close to the planning for the Edmonton part of the PPCLI 100th, and I've yet to see public funds used for much of anything.  Public DND/CAF infrastructure yes, but that is hardly unexpected.

 
I think a fundraising campaign in both Canada and countries we helped liberated would help with some of the funds.  The top priority of spending should be on the present day problems that have been associated with our forces. Nonetheless honouring our past is very important, and shouldn't be something taken lightly. This shouldn't even have to be a debate as the budgets should be separate.
 
Infantryman2b said:
This shouldn't even have to be a debate as the budgets should be separate.
It is all the Canadian Tax payer's money.  If the government is allocating it to heritage celebrations, then it is not going to training, maintenance, roads, bridges, or vetren support.  The government does not have access to unlimited funds, so something somewhere is going without this money.

As for anything being spent by DND - it is all O&M.
 
With the price climbing above $ 150 million across three departments, veterans groups are again questioning the amount being invested to historical military commemorations.
Ottawa spends too much remembering old wars, veterans group says
Money would be better spent helping current veterans with PTSD and other problems

Sophia Harris
CBC News
27 Aug 2014

A growing number of Canadian veterans' groups are upset that the federal government is spending millions commemorating old wars while current veterans are suffering from post-traumatic stress and other issues that they say are not being dealt with.

"I think it’s obscene," said Michael Blais, the president of Canadian Veterans Advocacy after attending a small, private ceremony in Ottawa to remember soldiers who took their own lives. There has been a recent spate of soldier suicides.

The CVA, along with other veterans' groups, believe that commemoration is important, but that it is not what matters most right now.

They want the many ceremonies that Ottawa sponsors downsized so the federal government can provide more money for veterans who are currently suffering from the ravages of war.

"The bottom line, the government’s failing their obligation to those who are living as a consequence of the money they're spending on the dead," says Blais.

2014 marks the centennial of the start of the First World War and the 75th anniversary of the start of the Second World War.

The government has plans for military commemorations leading all the way to the anniversary of the end of the Second World War in 2020, a series of events that follows on the heels of its high-profile campaign to commemorate the War of 1812.

The spending does add up. From 2010 to 2015, Canadian Heritage has either spent or budgeted almost $40 million on programs relating to the World Wars and the War of 1812, according to information obtained by the opposition Liberals through an access to information request.

National Defence has set aside at least $27.5 million for war commemoration from now until 2020.

Plus, Veterans Affairs has budgeted about $80 million over the next two years for remembrance activities that include the World Wars.

"What we have now is a government that’s just looking for photo ops and headlines, and commemoration is one great headline," said Blais.

The former soldier said the money saved from scaled-back commemorations could be redirected to help current veterans suffering from post-traumatic stress disorder (PTSD) and other injuries, and provide them with more financial assistance.​

Some high-profile watchdogs are also concerned about veterans' care. On Wednesday, Veterans ombudsman Guy Parent and Canadian Forces ombudsman Gary Walbourne pledged to work together to look into how veterans are treated in their transition back into civilian life.

Many soldiers, wounded in Afghanistan and too ill to continue serving, have found upon release that the veterans bureaucracy requires them to validate their condition by visiting different doctors.

In some instances, they have been denied benefits for injuries that cost them their careers.

"Our government believes it is our responsibility to honour and remember the bravery and sacrifice of those who have served our country," said Ashlee Smith, spokesperson for Veterans Affairs.

But she pointed out less than 1.5 per cent of the Veterans Affairs budget is spent on commemoration, and says that serving the needs of veterans is the department's top priority.

In 2011, the government said it would cut more than $226 million from Veterans Affairs’ budget because of a dwindling number of veterans.

Last year, after an assessment of government services,  the veterans ombudsman concluded that ex-soldiers, the most severely disabled in particular, are receiving inadequate compensation for their pain and suffering under the controversial new funding plan that was initiated in 2006.

Today, more and more of these veterans are willing to tell their own stories.

Bruce Moncur feels he’s still at war but, this time, it’s with Veterans Affairs.

In 2006, while serving in Afghanistan, he was hit in the head with shrapnel in a friendly fire incident, and he lost five per cent of his brain.

The 30 year old still suffers from fatigue, short-term memory loss and PTSD. "Fifty per cent of my PTSD comes from my time in Afghanistan, and fifty per cent of my PTSD comes from the treatment I've received [from Veteran Affairs] since I've come home," he said.

After almost 10 years in the military, Moncur can no longer serve because of his injuries. He said Veterans Affairs gave him a lump sum pension of $22,000, which he calls "a pittance." He’s been fighting his claim now for eight years.

Veterans Affairs reviewed Moncur's claim a year ago and didn't change its initial assessment. He says the department has now agreed to conduct a full internal review of his situation, but Veterans Affairs won't comment upon that aspect of his case.

Moncur also has to grapple with the fact that earlier this year, Veterans Affairs closed eight district offices including his location in Windsor.

He now has to travel for an hour and a half each way to London to meet with his caseworker. "When you cut money towards the veterans then your priorities are skewed," says Moncur. 

"They’re spending hundreds of millions of dollars on remembrance," he says. "While it is admirable, lists of priorities need to be made and maybe the commemorations need to be a little bit lower on the to-do list in this country."

He said he knows many veterans who are also suffering, and suggested the government could lump commemorative events together. The money saved, he said, "could be used in better spots such as keeping Veterans Affairs offices open across the country."

"It’s hard to explain to a veteran when he’s losing his local office and they’re spending millions of dollars on something else," said Tom Eagles.

The national president of The Royal Canadian Legion also believes the government needs to scale back commemoration events.

"We’re all in favour of what they’re doing in regard to honouring our men and women, but I think there has to be a happy balance somewhere."
http://www.cbc.ca/news/business/veterans-groups-say-ottawa-spending-too-much-remembering-old-wars-1.2747317
 
I think we need to stop looking at this as a waste of money and look at it as an opportunity to market our organization.  We always say that support for the Canadian Forces is a mile wide but only an inch deep, perhaps this should be seen as an opportunity to change that.  My :2c:
 
RoyalDrew said:
I think we need to stop looking at this as a waste of money and look at it as an opportunity to market our organization.  We always say that support for the Canadian Forces is a mile wide but only an inch deep, perhaps this should be seen as an opportunity to change that.  My :2c:

Great minds think alike....or fools seldom differ....:)

I was thinking the same thing last night on the way home about how poorly the CAF in general "markets" itself to Canadians.

The Patricias are now on a Memorial Baton Relay running from Edmonton to Ottawa. The local media has been pretty good on covering it. I digress.

Back to our topic.
 
RoyalDrew said:
I think we need to stop looking at this as a waste of money and look at it as an opportunity to market our organization.  We always say that support for the Canadian Forces is a mile wide but only an inch deep, perhaps this should be seen as an opportunity to change that.  My :2c:

Agreed - Here's a thought.

For the 100th Vimy Anniversary - April 12th 2017 - organize a grand parade of the entire CF in Toronto and have them march into the SkyDome.  54,000 in the seats and the remainder on the field.

Then ask Canadians if that is enough.
 
DND is turning back billions in unspent money. This is not really a DND thing but a "Ottawa" as in Cabinet thing. They set the priorities. I would say "Celebrating our history is good, but ignoring the plight of the vets at the same time is not". Mind you most nations have a pretty bad track record in looking after vets post any war, much worse for the losing side!

I would like to see a celebration of the aboriginal war vets and acknowledgement of the wrongs done to them upon returning to Canada.
 
Kirkhill said:
Agreed - Here's a thought.

For the 100th Vimy Anniversary - April 12th 2017 - organize a grand parade of the entire CF in Toronto and have them march into the SkyDome.  54,000 in the seats and the remainder on the field.

Then ask Canadians if that is enough.

The MND would have to approve the TD expenditures as this would likely qualify as a conference  ;D
 
Transporter said:
The MND would have to approve the TD expenditures as this would likely qualify as a conference  ;D

Imagine the event request and subsequent briefing note that would need to be generated!  A staff officer's worst nightmare hahahaha
 
I think the questions raised in the article are fair.  Is the investment proportional to what we are getting from it?  Is the opportunity cost worth it?  DND's investment in anniversary commemorations is equivalent to 92 weeks of a CMBG training in the field ... It's enough to have negated the 50% cut to Reg F army field units' O&M for a year or two or more.

But, I agree that we could get value from copying France's Bastille Day parade, or repeating what we did for the Afghan mission day of honour.  Unfortunately, that has not been where I have seen money spent from public pots intended to commemorate centennial, 90th and 75th anniversaries. 

I have seen touring and parading in Europe, which does not do much for us back here at home.  I have seen giant parades with soldiers from multiple cities & provinces, some of which were set against equally giant backdrops of dynamic displays and interactive, static displays, held inside our bases with turn-out consisting of serving & retired military and families. I have also seen small freedoms of the city parades, conducted in public spaces but during working hours without much public turn out. 

If this $150 million investment (500 x CMBG field weeks) in commemoration is an opportunity to connect Canadians with the military, then it is an opportunity that we may missing.
 
I've already said that I think celebrating our past is a very important thing to do, and in the grand scheme of things even $150 million isn't an over the top amount of money to do it. The key thing is we need to do it in front of the public as often and as accessibly as possible. Maybe that means a few Saturdays and Sundays spent marching up and down the square... But It also means we have maximum exposure to the people that matter. Those people being kids, and the young parents of kids who can identify with the 20-35 year old soldier/sailor/airman who served in both WW1 WW2 and beyond.

To be honest there will never be enough time, money, or effort put into supporting veterans in need of help. That doesn't mean that we should ignore our past though, times are tough but we have a responsibility to respect and publicly honour those that went before us just as we wish future generations to respect and honour what our generation did.

In my opinion (I won't say humble because it isn't) we need to put a lot more focus on being seen by the average Canadian, even if it means a short term loss to our training budgets. The people who determine how much we get to train with don't see us nearly enough to know what we need and why we need it, and that is why the average Canadian doesn't give a flying **** about making sure our budget is maintained at a reasonable level.
 
WeatherdoG said:
In my opinion (I won't say humble because it isn't) we need to put a lot more focus on being seen by the average Canadian, even if it means a short term loss to our training budgets. The people who determine how much we get to train with don't see us nearly enough to know what we need and why we need it, and that is why the average Canadian doesn't give a flying **** about making sure our budget is maintained at a reasonable level.

Yes, Reg F budgets are being slashed but Res F budgets are being slashed even deeper.  This is unfortunate because the Reserves are the face of the CAF in most of small town Canada and major urban centres not located near a base.  In fact, a study done a few years back showed that whenever a Canadian citizen sees a CAF member, there is an 80% likelihood that member is a Reservist (and they include CIC/COATS in that as they also wear the uniform).  That old "footprint in the community" thing....

In addition, there are strict controls on when Reservists can wear their uniforms and, in some cases, the authority for soldiers, even local unit COs and RSMs, to attend non-military public events in uniform (such as by invitation to civilian commemorative events for 1812 or WWI) to "show the flag" rests with the brigade commander.
 
Partner with the private sector to pay for the commemoration of past wars.
 
tomahawk6 said:
Partner with the private sector to pay for the commemoration of past wars.

The Scotiabank Vimy Ridge celebration... err commemoration, anyone?
 
Colin P
I would like to see a celebration of the aboriginal war vets and acknowledgement of the wrongs done to them upon returning to Canada.

Agree.
 
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