Battle of Trafalgar... Time to move on?

[Colin Parkinson]

You honour our first subs as well https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HMCS_CC-1

Is it true in WWI the British asked the Japanese to defend BC?  I don't recall that, I know we were sort of friendly, but not that much.(on the wiki page)

 

[Pusser]

You honour our first subs as well https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HMCS_CC-1

Is it true in WWI the British asked the Japanese to defend BC?  I don't recall that, I know we were sort of friendly, but not that much.(on the wiki page)

Yes, that is correct.  Japan was an ally that time around.

 

[Oldgateboatdriver]

Yes it's true Colin.

When WWI broke out, HMCS Rainbow (Apollo class cruiser) was sent down the US West coast to try  and defend two British sloops against two German raiding cruisers, the Leipzig and Nurnberg, expected to be in the area, even though Rainbow was no match for them. This was done until the Japanese heavy cruiser Izumo could take over the task at the request of the British  admiralty. Izumo then remained on the west coast of North America until any German threat to it had been eliminated.

The German threat never materialized, even though Rainbow missed Leipzig by only one day off San Fransisco, as the two German cruiser joined Maximilian Von Spee's squadron off South America for the Battle of Coronel, and were later defeated by admiral Craddock's fl;get in the Battle of the Falklands. 

 

[Pusser]

With a handle like Pusser why am I not surprised... ;D

To extend your analogy, when I moved out and got married I decided perhaps that its time for my own family traditions.  No disrespect to my parents but I'm a new modern guy and I like my new traditions like Thanksgiving or birthday pie (vice cake...yuck).  I still do a few things the old country did, such as use their rank system and fancy executive curls (which I think anyone can wear, not just the executive branch).  My dads wars are not something that a care about.  I was just a twinkle in his eye when he fought and its just stories to me.  Do I respect him for it sure.  If he invites me over to drink a few times in his house to celebrate no problems.  Am I going to introduce that stuff to my own family?  No.  Respect it yes, celebrate it not necessarily.  I have my own traditions to build.  Like all families do.

Besides, my actual genealogy has very little if nothing to do with the British.  I'm a hard core Canadian and identify as such.

At no point have I ever said we shouldn't have our own traditions.  I frequently say quite the opposite in fact.  However, I don't see why we should necessarily cast off some traditions, simply because they are British in origin.  I don't think we have so many traditions to observe that we need to start getting rid of any of them.  Let's celebrate them all!

I think "NIOBE Night" is a great idea, as long as we tell the whole story when we celebrate:  that NIOBE arrived in Halifax on Trafalgar Day in 1910 (and yes, it was intentional) precisely to seal the bond between the RN and the Naval Service of Canada - a bond that endures (we're still allies and share a common monarch).

 

[dapaterson]

... to seal the bond between the RN and the Naval Service of Canada - a bond that endures (we're still allies and share a common monarch).

Ah yes, would that be "an uncaring officer corps harbouring aristocratic British attitudes inappropriate to Canadian democratic sensitivities"? 

 

[Pusser]

Ah yes, would that be "an uncaring officer corps harbouring aristocratic British attitudes inappropriate to Canadian democratic sensitivities"? 

That got cleaned up in the Mainguy Report - sort of.  Some folks need to pull that out and read it again sometimes as history does have a way of repeating itself...

 

[NavalMoose]

BZ to Pusser for his post.  Trafalgar is a significant event for Canada.  It enabled the British Empire (of which "Canada" was part) to grow in strength and prosperity.  Canada was able to grow in relative peace for over a century.  Even the War of 1812, in naval terms was mainly skirmishes on the Great Lakes and if it had carried on, the Royal Navy would have dealt with the US Navy. If the original poster doesn't like Trafalgar Night mess dinners, don't go, the Press Gangs of 1805 have long since gone.  You can't change the past and whether you like it or not, Canada was part of an Empire and when big things happened, they affected the whole organization.

 

[jollyjacktar]

Well said.

 

[Michael OLeary]

That got cleaned up in the Mainguy Report - sort of.  Some folks need to pull that out and read it again sometimes as history does have a way of repeating itself...

The Mainguy Report - Outstanding Points
http://regimentalrogue.tripod.com/blog/index.blog/2335704/the-mainguy-report-outstanding-points/

 

[Nuggs]

The Mainguy Report - Outstanding Points
http://regimentalrogue.tripod.com/blog/index.blog/2335704/the-mainguy-report-outstanding-points/

Slowly coming back full circle.

Part of the reason I switched to boats. Senior NCMs being ignored or derided by junior officers barely off NOPQ.

To top it all off senior NCOs (including) the COXN, don't seem to have a backbone anymore.

I haven't been in that long, but when I first got in it wouldn't have been uncommon to hear "it's my section and I'll run it my way", now it seems more like a downtrodden "yes sir"

Sent from my Nexus 6P using Tapatalk

 

[daftandbarmy]

The Mainguy Report - Outstanding Points
http://regimentalrogue.tripod.com/blog/index.blog/2335704/the-mainguy-report-outstanding-points/

Then why the recent rush to re-emulate our colonial masters by way of pips etc?

At least it's still easy to tell us apart from the British by the quality of our teeth.

 

[NavalMoose]

"At least it's still easy to tell us apart from the British by the quality of our teeth."

Really? That "joke" is about as old as Trafalgar...do you get your info from The Simpsons?

 

[rmc_wannabe]

"At least it's still easy to tell us apart from the British by the quality of our teeth."

Really? That "joke" is about as old as Trafalgar...do you get your info from The Simpsons?

I think daftandbarmy has more than enough first hand knowledge on this matter. What with 25 years experience with the British Army and all....

 

[Edward Campbell]

"At least it's still easy to tell us apart from the British by the quality of our teeth."

Really? That "joke" is about as old as Trafalgar...do you get your info from The Simpsons?

:highjack:

OK, basic Economics 101 lesson ...

    Caveat lector: I do not have the references any more, but I did 40ish years ago when I wrote a paper on this subject so I'll ask you to take me at my word ...

The medical rejection rates in both the UK and Canadian armies were very, very high in 1939 and 40 (and, indeed, even after), much higher than in 1914-18 and much higher than officials and generals expected. It appeared that the overall health of both nations had declined but dental fitness was  a matter of special, noteworthy concern: far more young men (mostly men) than expected were rejected as being dentally unfit ... so "unfit" that remedial dental care was considered to be useless.

Why?

The Great Depression.

One of the first impacts of the Great Depression (1930-39) was to constrain household expenditures ~ there were few social services and no National Health or Medicare. One of the impacts was that good, healthy, nutritious food was less plentiful on the tables of the unemployed or, even, of the working class. The 18-25 year old cohort was less well nourished that its parents had been. One of the first "discretionary expenses" to be cut was dental care ~ and given the state of more health insurance plans today I suspect it might be again ~ because the perception is that it's either or both of a) a luxury or b) something that is unlikely to be a real, serious problem.

    (Even growing up in the 1940s and 1950s I can recall that regular dental checkups were "new' to many people. Regular, free, dental checkups for school children were introduced many (most?) Canadian provinces in the late 1940s,
      partly as a result, I think, of the wartime experience.)

The British were slower to catch on and I can, personally, recall that many of my UK colleagues and classmates were envious of our, Canadian, dental care, especially of our military dental care. There was, in the 1970s, still a Canadian Army dentist on staff at CDLS (London) to provide Canadian standard/quality care for CF members posted in the UK.

In my opinion poor dental care became a habit, especially in Britain, but the roots (pun intended  :nod: ) were, pretty clearly, I think, in the economic distress of the Great Depression.

-----

Sorry for the  ff topic:

 

[Oldgateboatdriver]

"At least it's still easy to tell us apart from the British by the quality of our teeth."

Really? That "joke" is about as old as Trafalgar...do you get your info from The Simpsons?

But even the Queen and the BBC get it:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TNcFsXX9vVc

;D

 

[Underway]

BZ to Pusser for his post.  Trafalgar is a significant event for Canada.  It enabled the British Empire (of which "Canada" was part) to grow in strength and prosperity.  Canada was able to grow in relative peace for over a century.  Even the War of 1812, in naval terms was mainly skirmishes on the Great Lakes and if it had carried on, the Royal Navy would have dealt with the US Navy. If the original poster doesn't like Trafalgar Night mess dinners, don't go, the Press Gangs of 1805 have long since gone.  You can't change the past and whether you like it or not, Canada was part of an Empire and when big things happened, they affected the whole organization.

Don't get me wrong.  I enjoy the mess diners, I was just wondering if it was time to move off the Trafalgar theme for a more RCN focused one?  The NIOBE suggestion is an excellent one.  As for being part of an Empire do Australians celebrate Trafalgar?  India, Singpore, NZ?  I don't have the answers to these but I'm pretty sure any celebrations that they do have are more structured around their own national identity, not someone else's.

 

[Oldgateboatdriver]

Agreed Underway.


And for those who wish to make a pilgrimage, remember that the second tallest "Nelson Column" in the world, celebrating the victory at Trafalgar, is located right beside City Hall in Montreal.  :nod:

 

[FSTO]

Don't get me wrong.  I enjoy the mess diners, I was just wondering if it was time to move off the Trafalgar theme for a more RCN focused one?  The NIOBE suggestion is an excellent one.  As for being part of an Empire do Australians celebrate Trafalgar?  India, Singpore, NZ?  I don't have the answers to these but I'm pretty sure any celebrations that they do have are more structured around their own national identity, not someone else's.

Put your mind at ease for the Battle of the Atlantic Mess dinner is being held soon. How much more Canadian can you get?

 

[FSTO]

Agreed Underway.


And for those who wish to make a pilgrimage, remember that the second tallest "Nelson Column" in the world, celebrating the victory at Trafalgar, is located right beside City Hall in Montreal.  :nod:

I had forgot about that! Wasn't it the target once of the FLQ bombers during the last century? (I love saying that!)

 

[Pusser]

Don't get me wrong.  I enjoy the mess diners, I was just wondering if it was time to move off the Trafalgar theme for a more RCN focused one?  The NIOBE suggestion is an excellent one.  As for being part of an Empire do Australians celebrate Trafalgar?  India, Singpore, NZ?  I don't have the answers to these but I'm pretty sure any celebrations that they do have are more structured around their own national identity, not someone else's.

I take issue with the idea that by commemorating Trafalgar, we are structuring ourselves around another nation's identity.  The history of Canada did not begin in 1867 and the history of the RCN did not begin in 1910.  The RCN can legitimately claim roots dating back centuries, even to the formation of the RN itself(and that date is open to debate).  Keep also in mind that the RN provided naval protection of British North America from the beginning and the establishment of the Naval Service of Canada was not so much a new creation, but rather (if you really delve into the Naval Service Act of 1910) the formation of a Canadian squadron of the RN.  That's not where we are now, but that's where we were and the transition to today's state has been continuous.  It's also arguable that if you only want to celebrate truly "Canadian" naval events, even the Battle of the Atlantic does not strictly fit that bill.  Although Canadians did a lot of the fighting and a Canadian led the allied forces involved, many of the key strategic decisions were still being made at the Admiralty.

As for what they do in other Commonwealth nations (and keep in mind that there is a difference between Commonwealth nations and Commonwealth Realms), why should we care?