Battle Honours for Afghanistan

[brihard]

If it's just two infantry units excluded, I suspect we'll see that revisited. The Hastys couldn't have been far from the threshold. I can't speak for 1 and 2 Newf, but I'd like to see someone explain the rationale to Brian Pinksen's family. Likewise Mark McLaren's, although he was wearing the Death Star the second time he was hit and ultimately killed. A sound argument can be made for the theatre honour going to all of the infantry units... Particularly given how we're very nearly there anyway.

 

[vonGarvin]

As a former Plough Jockey,  this would be a kick in the teeth for The Regiment.  In the Second World War, The Regiment received more battle honour than any other Regiment.  I also remember that some infantry units have greater effective strength than others. So, in a way, one could perhaps say that smaller, less effective units are being rewarded for mediocrity.
(I know that we had a Hasty P in our BG HQ on 3-08.)

 

[bick]

As a  Patricia, I find it humbling to have  participated in a theater that will be listed alongside campaigns my family fought in during the World Wars.

The soldiers change, but the Regiment marches on. 

VP

 

[PPCLI Guy]

As a  Patricia, I find it humbling to have  participated in a theater that will be listed alongside campaigns my family fought in during the World Wars.

The soldiers change, but the Regiment marches on. 

VP

 

[Scoobie Newbie]

As a  Patricia, I find it humbling to have  participated in a theater that will be listed alongside campaigns my family fought in during the World Wars.

The soldiers change, but the Regiment marches on. 

VP

Very nicely stated

 

[Good2Golf]

Interesting that neither 423 nor 443 Sqn were granted the Theatre Honour for "Arabian Sea", despite having been nearly continuously deployed in the region for the past 13 years and in the 2001-2003 period, each Sqn deployed more than their posted strength as part of Helairdets. At one point, I recall that 12 Wing had 12 HELAIRDETs, but generated and deployed 15 Helairdets during that period.

Kind of like when only 433e ETAC received the 'KOSOVO' battle honour for the campaign, but 408 THS and 430e ETAH did not, even though they were armed and actually landed on Kosovar soil? (vice just the Hornet's JDAMs)

Regards
G2G

 

[Old Sweat]

As a former Plough Jockey,  this would be a kick in the teeth for The Regiment.  In the Second World War, The Regiment received more battle honour than any other Regiment.  I also remember that some infantry units have greater effective strength than others. So, in a way, one could perhaps say that smaller, less effective units are being rewarded for mediocrity.
(I know that we had a Hasty P in our BG HQ on 3-08.)

The current list should not be treated as the end of it. The RHLI had to wait from 1920 to 1926 to receive the battle honours of and to perpetuate the 4th Bn CEF, while the request by the Tor Scots for the battle honour "Dieppe" was initially refused because the number from the regiment present were below the approved level. When the regiment noted that may have been true, but all 36 of its Vickers were in action that day, the request was approved.

 

[Scoobie Newbie]

Remind me.  Which branch of gov't decides/reviews these decisions?

 

[MilEME09]

Because they are not combatant units.

I realize this but they still took part in the theatre

 

[Michael OLeary]

As I have argued here and elsewhere, the first requirement was a need for clear, revised, terms of reference for the award of honours. Those should have been made known to all units, and those terms should have formed the basis of the first round of discussions.

Instead, we have a list based on a generalized (and close held) approach and now we see the questioning about why certain regiments don't appear, and why certain types of units weren't given an opportunity to make the case for their eligibility. So let the public outcry begin, because the show is now over and the painful staffwork can follow, I guess.

This is why the awards of honours for past conflicts took years, because the Army wanted to get the right the first time. (And yes, even then, some follow-up occurred as Regiments waited for information to substantiate new arguments for additions.)

 

[daftandbarmy]

I recall a great hue and cry about battle honours following the Falklands War.

I know it's Wikipedia, but I found this article of interest:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_honour

A battle honour may be granted to infantry/cavalry regiments or battalions, as well as ships (see Naval battle honours below) and squadrons; they are rarely granted to sub-units such as companies, platoons and sections in the army. Battle honours are usually presented in the form of a name of a country, region, or city where the unit's distinguished act took place, usually together with the year when it occurred.

Not every battle fought will automatically result in the granting of a battle honour. Conversely, a regiment or a battalion might obtain more than one battle honour over the course of a larger operation. For example, the 2nd Battalion of the Scots Guards were awarded two battle honours for their role in the Falklands War; "Tumbledown Mountain" specifically for the Battle of Mount Tumbledown, and "Falkland Islands 1982" for the overall conflict. Similarly, while in Korea, Princess Patricia's Canadian Light Infantry earned both "Kapyong" (for the Battle of Kapyong) and "Korea 1951–1953" (for the overall war). A unit does not have to successfully defeat their adversary to earn a battle honour: the Hong Kong Volunteer Defence Corps received the battle honour "Hong Kong" despite the defeat and capture of most of the force during the Japanese invasion of Hong Kong, while the cruiser HMAS Sydney was awarded the naval engagement honour "Kormoran 1941" after being sunk with all aboard by the German raider Kormoran.

Supporting corps/branches such as medical, service, ordnance, or transport do not currently receive battle honours. However and uniquely the Royal Logistic Corps has five battle honours inherited from its previous transport elements, such as the Royal Waggon Train. Commonwealth artillery does not maintain battle honours as they carry neither colours nor guidons—though their guns by tradition are afforded many of the same respects and courtesies. However, both the Royal Artillery and Royal Engineers were in 1832 granted by King William IV the right to use the Latin "Ubique", meaning everywhere, as a battle honour. This is worn on the cap badge of both the Corps of Royal Engineers and the Royal Regiment of Artillery (but not the Royal Horse Artillery). Likewise the Royal Marines, although a colours-carrying service, was granted, along with the conventional battle honour of "Gibraltar", the "Great Globe itself" by King George IV for its very numerous battle honours around the world.

The practice was later extended to these same regiments and corps in the successor Commonwealth armed forces.

 

[McG]

Have brigades or divisions (or maybe a formation HQ) ever been awarded battle honours?

 

[George Wallace]

I believe so.  My memory is a little faded, but I believe that when I was at 1 Div, there was mention of Battle Honours.

 

[x_para76]

In regards to the decision to award a theatre honour to units from CANSOFCOM does anyone here know if any of those units currently hold any other honours? Did they inherit any from units such as the Devils Brigade? Just curious and although I read through the entire thread it's possible that it was discussed earlier and I missed it. If this is the case then please accept my apology and direct me to the appropriate thread or page. Many thanks!

 

[MikeL]

http://www.forces.gc.ca/en/operations-special-forces/csor.page

CSOR proudly carries the Black Devils’ battle honours, and the Devils’ spirit lives on at CSOR.

http://pm.gc.ca/eng/news/2014/05/09/south-west-asia-theatre-honours

UBIQUE Motto

The Royal Regiment of Canadian Artillery, the Corps of Royal Canadian Engineers and Joint Task Force 2 do not carry individual battle honours, but instead use the motto “UBIQUE,” meaning “everywhere.”

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/427_Special_Operations_Aviation_Squadron#Battle_honours

427 Squadron was awarded the following battle honours, which are carried on their standard:[4]

English Channel and North Sea 1943–1945
Baltic 1944–1945
Fortress Europe 1943–1944
France and Germany 1944–1945
Biscay 1944
Biscay Ports 1943–1944
Ruhr 1943–1945
Berlin 1943–1944
German Ports 1943–1945
Normandy 1944
Rhine
Afghanistan[6]

 

[Michael OLeary]

Have brigades or divisions (or maybe a formation HQ) ever been awarded battle honours?

None that I have ever discovered. Formations and headquarters are not traditional "line of battle" units.

 

[x_para76]

http://www.forces.gc.ca/en/operations-special-forces/csor.page
http://pm.gc.ca/eng/news/2014/05/09/south-west-asia-theatre-honours
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/427_Special_Operations_Aviation_Squadron#Battle_honours

:cheers:

 

[daftandbarmy]

None that I have ever discovered. Formations and headquarters are not traditional "line of battle" units.

The US has the Presidential Unit Citation, awarded to Divs etc.

Looks like some were well earned in this list!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Presidential_Unit_Citation_(United_States)

 

[Journeyman]

Looks like some were well earned in this list!

Are you referring to 2 PPCLI or JTF-2.....both of which are PUC-holders. 

 

[Michael OLeary]

The US has the Presidential Unit Citation, awarded to Divs etc.

Which are not Battle Honours in the Canadian system. They are a different nation's awards, with their own terms of reference and system of being awarded.