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Announcements & Decisions on Tactical & Stratigic Airlift (Fall 2005 and 2006)

Git er done, 4.6 BILLION for 16 Hercs, or 1.2 BILLION for 6 C17's.  Hello savings.  Lets get 23 C-17's for 4.6 BILLION, two things solved, stategic and tactical, now, those 9 H models, used for SAR stuff.  I bet if we offer cash, we might get lucky, end month quota for the sales guy, and get 25 for 4.6.  All is well in the realm.
 
I certainly can't comment on the CFs other needs (tactical, short haul etc) but what I can comment on is my first hand knowlege of the C-17.

My brother is a TSgt with the USAF and was part of the primary AFOTEC team working on the C-17 when the USAF had their first 6-10 of these aircraft. I have seen them up close and personal, and watched them take off and land. I have believed for years, that the C-17 would be an ideal replacement for the C-130 for Canada. They are impressive aircraft with their short and rough landing strip capabilities, and they are certainly spacious inside.

I will dig through my photos and scan any that I feel may be of interest here, re the C-17 if people are interested.

In short, I think it would be good news, and I agree with the above quote as well.
 
CdnArtyWife said:
I will dig through my photos and scan any that I feel may be of interest here, re the C-17 if people are interested.
I would be interested in seeing some photos.

Also, count this voter as supporting such a purchase.  I was involved with the MND's visit to Astra to see a LAV APC loaded onto a herc.  Ironically, the herc was permanently grounded due to something or other (structural stress in the wings, I believe).  The point was that yes, a LAV APC can fit in a herc, but its range is quite limited, and no stores can be on it due to weight (eg: you cannot have ammo in it, the crew in the same aircraft and forget about the add-on armour package). 
 
Bomber said:
Git er done, 4.6 BILLION for 16 Hercs, or 1.2 BILLION for 6 C17's.  Hello savings.  Lets get 23 C-17's for 4.6 BILLION, two things solved, stategic and tactical, now, those 9 H models, used for SAR stuff.  I bet if we offer cash, we might get lucky, end month quota for the sales guy, and get 25 for 4.6.  All is well in the realm.

I may be way off base (please correct me if so), but isn't 1.2B for 6 C-17's only the airframe cost?  Wouldn't the airframe-only cost of 16 Hercs be about the same (~80M each)?  I was under the impression that the Herc 4.6B pricetag was the lifetime cost that included parts, service etc.  If that's the case then this report is a bit mis-leading (with respect to price).
 
vonGarvin said:
I would be interested in seeing some photos.
Unless you really care about the outside of the thing...  ;)
Here's a pic of what is most important to us, the cargo compartment; strangely, there are Paratroopers involved !!  8) 102 of them, with full-eqpt !!!
 
The AN-124 is going back into production with 50 aircraft to be built. Cost is $150m each with a payload of 120t. The AN-225 may become available at close to $200m.Work on a second aircraft that had been suspended is now being completed. It can carry over 250t of cargo. In comparison the C-17 carries 79t of cargo. For my money and to help Ukraine I think the western air forces should buy AN-124's.
 
exon: You're absolutely right.  The price for C-17s is ex-factory, not life-cycle as with the Hercs.  !6 Hercs would cost $1.28 billion ex-factory, about the same as 6 C-17s.  The Globe report is thus completely misleading; the "industry sources" (Boeing?) are deliberately low-balling the cost and the reporter, Michael den Tandt, is too dim to notice.

Mark
Ottawa
 
From an August 2005 Fraser Institute study, "The Need for Canadian Strategic Lift"
http://www.fraserinstitute.ca/admin/books/files/CanadianStrategicLift.pdf

(which is also not keen on the Navy's Joint Support Ship as now configured)
http://www.navy.forces.gc.ca/mspa_news/news_e.asp?id=164

(second paragraph out of sequence for flow):

"...
To get where they are needed in theatres overseas, strategic lift is needed. Tactical lift--mostly by air--refers to the ability to move around in a given theatre...

For airlift, using large airlifters for small cargo loads in inefficient. Rather, it may well be in the interest of the Air Force to have a mixed fleet of larger, medium, and small transport aircraft [e.g. C-27Js or C-295s also doubling as fixed-wing SAR, and not a Bombardier Q Series derivative]...

A well-rounded airlift fleet for Canada, therefore, would entail six to eight C-17s or equivalent number of other aircraft to provide strategic airlift needs, and 15 to 20 C-130Js to replace the older model Hercules in the current fleet..."

H/t to Spotlight on Military News and International Affairs.
http://www.cfc.forces.gc.ca/spotnews_e.html

The Globe story on C-17s does not list a Hercules replacement amongst the equipment acquisition priorities. Maybe by the time, if re-elected, the Conservatives get around to that the C-130J will be out of production and only the A-400M well remain.
http://home.businesswire.com/portal/site/google/index.jsp?ndmViewId=news_view&newsId=20060320005949&newsLang=en

And maybe the Air Force will get the C-17s in time to take up the slack as the Hercs age.
http://www.thestar.com/NASApp/cs/ContentServer?pagename=thestar/Layout/Article_PrintFriendly&c=Article&cid=1140390609515

But I wonder.

Mark
Ottawa
 
Meanwhile, now we will have a fair degree of Antonov access via NATO.
http://www.sfu.ca/casr/bg-airlift-nato.htm

Mark
Ottawa
 
Jim Travers of the Toronto Star thinks the Air Force will get both strategic and tactical lift in the budget.
http://www.thestar.com/NASApp/cs/ContentServer?pagename=thestar/Layout/Article_Type1&c=Article&cid=1145875389133&call_pageid=968256290204&col=968350116795

Excerpts:

"...
Hillier will get the tactical aircraft required by an operations-oriented military and O'Connor will get the heavy-lift transporters needed to wave the flag.

It's not yet clear that either will get everything they want. Purchase orders for Hillier's 16 short-haul Lockheed-Martin Hercules and O'Connor's six Boeing Globemasters would effortlessly exceed the additional $5.3 billion that Harper promised during the winter election to make the military more muscular..."

Mark
Ottawa
 
............ so you're suggesting that we'll go hungry while taking delivery of airframes (and parts) for the transport of troops that we won't be able to field due to lack of cash?....... Cheez - does this sound familiar? (exlcuding the shiny new planes)
 
Both Boeing and Airbus have full-page colour ads in the May 8 Hill Times aimed at our politicians and political media.
http://www.hilltimes.com/index.php

Boeing's for the C-17 points out:

'...its unmatched ability to support troops and deliver humanitarian relief virtually anywhere, anytime...'

Airbus, for its part, takes the following line, appealing to traditional Canadian parsimony in defence purchases:

'A400M: Get more -pay less!

Canada wants a new tactical military transport aircraft. There is also a demand for a new strategic airlift capability. The A400M does both without finding new tax dollars to buy and maintain tow separate aircraft fleets [Airbus' emphasis]...the A400M will be delivered on time and ready for service in 2009...'

Nothing from Lockheed Martin touting the C-130J. Confidence?

Mark
Ottawa
 
a lot of confidence for the A400. From what I had heard, the 1st copy wasn't certified and there has to be other Airforces already in line to pick up some of these aircraft.... or are there?

WRT the C17.... If we are going for strategic aircraft then it's either "it" or the antonov.

Last I heard from the C17, Dubya had authorized the construction of some C17s withouth there being an ultimate owner on the hook.... so there are 2 or 3 that are already in production -
 
Critics take aim at plan to buy new Lockheed planes
Updated Fri. Oct. 27 2006 9:29 PM ET
David Akin, CTV News

OTTAWA -- As a key checkpoint approaches for a multi-billion dollar contract to buy new military planes, new questions are being raised about the suitability of the Canadian defence department's preferred choice to win that contract, the Lockheed Martin C-130J Hercules.

The Canadian government has committed to spend up to $4.6-billion to buy 17 aircraft to replace its aging fleet of C-130E and C-130H Hercules aircraft, some of which have been flying since the 1960s.

Senior generals are believed to favour replacing the old 'Hercs' with the new 'Hercs', the 130J.

The government invited tenders for that contract last month but there have been complaints that the mandatory requirements in that tender rule out every plane but the C-130J.

"It's a fake competition, therefore you might not get at the right product," said Ujjal Dosanjh, the Liberal defence critic.

Now, some of Lockheed's competitors are trying to knock holes in the C-130Js suitability.

They note, for example, that the C-130J was recently dropped from a competition the U.S. military has underway for a new purchase of short-haul cargo planes.

"It seems incredible to me that we're looking at planes that other nations, like the Americans, have rejected," said Dawn Black, the NDP defence critic.

The U.S. army dropped the 130J from its latest competition citing concerns that it did not meet certain technical specifications the U.S. Army required. The U.S. Air Force has several C-130Js in active service, including on combat missions. Lockheed Martin has filed an official protest with the U.S. government and wants back in the Army competition.

Key political players overseeing Canada's defence budget, including Defence Minister Gordon O'Connor and Rick Casson, the Conservative MP who chairs the House of Commons Defence Committee, have not been briefed about the C-130J's failure to make the cut in the U.S. army competition.

O'Connor though believes the U.S. Army's decision is irrelevant to the decision his government will make.

"It's up to our Canadian process to determine what qualifies and what doesn't," O'Connor said.

Dosanjh said the government ought to have given military officials a better indication of what the new planes will be required to do.

"This government has not produced a defence capability plan and one can only assess [airlift requirements] in context of a larger plan and they have not produced that plan," said Dosanjh.

Still, the C-130J has many fans in the Canadian defence establishment, not the least of which is General Rick Hillier, the chief of defence staff. Hercules pilots, too, speak warmly about its reliability and ability.

The C-130 was first produced in the early 1950s. More than 2,300 have been produced since then and are used by air forces around the world. Canada bought its first C-130 in 1960. The Canadian Air Force now has 33 C-130s, either the C-130E or the C-130H, the latest of which was purchased in 1996.

The plane is known as a tactical airlifter, moving troops and cargo around the world's hotspots. It also performs some search-and-rescue functions.

"Sometimes the right solution that comes along remains the right solution for a long time. That has been the case with the C-130," said Lockheed spokesman Peter Simmons in a telephone interview from the company's head office in Marietta, Ga. "There simply has never been an aircraft developed and brought to market that can do what the C-130 can do."

But Airbus Military says it is building a new plane, the A400M, which it hopes will be for the next 50 years what the C-130 was for the last 50 years.

Airbus Military, a business unit of European Aeronautic Defence and Space Company EADS N.V of The Netherlands, has already sold its A400M to nine countries, including some of Canada's NATO allies.

But it won't get a chance to compete for Canada's business because one of the mandatory requirements written into the Canadian tender is that Canadian officials must be able to take the proposed plane on a test flight now.

CTV News has learned that Canadian officials travelled to Georgia last week for the test flight on the C-130J.

The A400M's maiden flight won't take place until 2008, effectively taking it out of the competition.

That said, Airbus says it would still be able to deliver new planes to Canada just as fast as Lockheed will deliver new C-130Js. The Canadian contract stipulates that the first plane must be delivered within three years of the contract being signed.

Industry and government officials expect the contract to be signed sometime in the fall of 2007, which means the new planes will go into service some time in 2010.

"We hope the Canadian government will consider our plane as well," said Anne Healey of EADS Canada. "Let there be a competition. Let the best plane win."

Dosanjh, the Liberal defence critic, says the process has been tainted.

"I'm not advocating for one or the other but obviously [this] is designed to seek one particular product at the end," said Dosanjh.

Underneath the billion-dollar battle between Lockheed and Airbus is a tangled web of professional and personal relationships in Ottawa's political and lobbyist community.

For example, before he became Canada's top soldier, Hillier was on the staff of General Patrick O'Donnell. O'Donnell retired to head up a consultancy, CFN Consultants, and is now the registered lobbyist for Lockheed Martin. The firm Hill and Knowlton is the registered lobbyist for Airbus. It's chief executive is Michael Coates, who worked on the last two Conservative election campaigns, including coaching Prime Minister Harper for the leaders' debates. Gordon O'Connor, before entering politics, worked as a lobbyist at Hill and Knowlton and one of his clients was Airbus.

Both Hillier and O'Connor have scrupulously avoided even mentioning either aircraft by name in public for at least the last six months for fear there may be any accusations of conflicts-of-interest.

"Where I get involved is setting the basic requirement at the top in terms of policy and providing the money. And making sure, from my point of view, the process is fair," O'Connor said.

O'Connor, in fact, has been so sensitive about accusations of political meddling that he has refused any meetings since becoming Defence Minister with industry representatives. Industry sources say that even at a political fundraiser this week in his Ottawa-area riding, O'Connor would not engage even in informal discussions with representatives of firms that may be looking to do any kind of business with his department.

In the meantime, the bid process is in the hands of Public Works Minister Michael Fortier, a former investment banker. Like O'Connor, he, too, is eschewing any meetings with either Airbus or Lockheed.

David Akin is a Parliamentary Correspondent for CTV News
http://www.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNews/story/CTVNews/20061027/military_planes_061027/20061027?hub=TopStories

Does anybody else find it funny that the Liberals are now saying the exact same things that the Conservatives were saying prior to the last election, and at the same time the Conservatives have taken to supporting the plane that the Liberals were ready to buy?  ("C130 =  Bad; A400 = Good")
"It's a fake competition, therefore you might not get at the right product," said Ujjal Dosanjh, the Liberal defence critic.
 
("C130 =  Bad; A400 = Good")

How do arrive at that? This board and just about every blog and paper out there was enspousing the c130, now, because the c130 didn't meet the specs of some US contract, we should change, or am I confused....that's alright you can tell me...I feel that way, I just want it confirmed.... :)
 
This may have more to do with US Army/USAF interservice politics than anything with the aircraft.  Can you imagine the USAF permitting the Army to fly a C-130, an aircraft it regards as its exclusive domain?  I seem to recall there being a similar discussion in the 1960s, when the Army lost its Caribous...

As for Dosanjh...  ::)
 
I was under the impression that the army wanted a cheap, short haul aircraft with an extremely short landing capability.  The USAF already has C130s and is not able to meet the US Army's needs, for whatever reason.  Meanwhile the Army has been getting the job done with the Sherpa and the CH-47.  Both of which are in too short supply.

Then, as TR said, there is Army/Air Force politics involved in the debate.  The US Air Force seems to continue to have a problem with giving up fix wings to the Army or else deciding to support the Army the way the Army needs/wants.

None of that has anything to do with the C130J which, counter to Ujjal and Dawn, has been accepted into service by the UK, Australia, Denmark,............and the US.

...The improvements built into the C-130J, which entered production in 1997, have enhanced the performance of the aircraft in terms of range, cruise ceiling time to climb, speed and airfield requirements.

A stretched version, the C-130J-30 has been developed and is designated CC-130J by the USAF. The first C-130J-30 for the UK RAF (the launch customer) was delivered in November 1999.

The C-130J entered active service with the USAF at Little Rock Air Force Base in April 2004 and was first deployed in December 2004. The first combat airdrop for the USAF was in July 2005.

C-130J ORDERS

Over 180 C-130J and C-130J-30 aircraft have been ordered and over 121 delivered. Orders are: US Air Force, Air National Guard, Marine Corps and Coastguard (89 x C-130J and C-130J-30, 20 x KC-130J tankers), UK (ten x C-130J, 15 x C-130J-30, all delivered), Italian Air Force (12 x C-130J, ten x C-130J-30 all delivered), Royal Australian Air Force (12 x C-130J), Kuwaiti Air Force (four x C-130J-30) and Danish Air Force (three x C-130J-30, all delivered, plus one ordered in July 2004).

In April 2004, the US Marine Corps formally accepted the first KC-130J tanker / transport into service. The aircraft was first deployed in combat in April 2005 in Iraq.

http://www.airforce-technology.com/projects/hercules/
 
I don't want to knock AirBus because I think they make a good product but the fact is the C130J is flying now. The A400M hasn't had its maiden flight yet, I don't believe they have even completed the first air frame. They say they could deliver the A400M in the same time frame as the C130J but what happens if they have construction or technical problems, what about the other countries that have agreed to by the plane that are in line for it before us?
 
Airbus is having all sorts of problems right now.
The german workers are even talking about...... strikes

Airbus has bet it's reputation on the A380 - which is way behind schedule and waaaaaay over budget.... the A400 is only an afterthought.
 
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