Alleged Institutional Racism/solutions in CAF (merged)

[brian8225]

I think there is confusion about promoting diversity to attract a different group of applicants and hiring someone because they are diverse.

Recruiting campaigns focused on attracting minorities should inherently result in more minority applicants and more diversity occurring naturally within the force based on the simple fact that if you have 1/10 people applying as a minority vs 1/100, odds are good that you're going to get a different mix of equally and highly skilled applicants. Promoting the CF to a new demographic is DIFFERENT than a quota or hiring someone because of their gender/color/religion/etc. You are STILL hiring the best applicant, your top 10 list is now a more diverse pool of people to choose from.

Simple example:

I receive online applications from 10 white males. The best candidates are 3 white males, and I end up employing 3 white males. Zero diversity.
I receive online applications from the same 10 white males and an additional 5 minorities. The best candidates are 2 white males and 1 minority. Now I'm at 33% diversity.

In both cases, you picked purely based on skill/merit/qualifications, but because you got a different mix of applicants, you get diversity, and end up with a BETTER army than if you had taken male #3 from the first scenario because minority #1 is more qualified. Edit - You could also still end up with the same 3 white guys, and have no diversity. That's the difference between quotas and targets. A quota would force the 33% whereas a target still gets the best people for the job.

 

[Jarnhamar]

So  we shouldn't put effort and money into making the CF diverse?

I don't see it as a very important issue right now considering the state of the CF and the issues we have especially surrounding money.
I would rather see more time and effort put into other things like fixing military housing, veterans benefits, upgrading equipment, ammunition, physical fitness.  I've found the CFs attempts to make the CF more diverse looks forced and hollow.  12 million dollars annually on these commercial that just offend people they are trying to attract?

If someone doesn't want to work for the CF then too bad for them.

I never said that the colour of their skin has anything to to with their ability.  But the diversity of our forces helps us as an organisation serve ALL Canadians.

Can you explain to me how?  How can soldiers serve the interests of Canada and Canadians better based off their race?

  As a matter of fact I do think people care about the CF being inclusive.  Having done countless diversity events for all targetted groups all across the country I can tell you that the effort is appreciated by just about every group I've dealt with.

I remember having a bad taste left in my mouth when someone broke down how many english Canadians vs french Canadians died in Afghanistan.
If you say you've done countless diversity events (I can't even begin to guess what that is?) I'll believe you and if you say it's appreciated then I'll believe that too- but I still don't see how it makes our forces stronger or in a better position to protect Canada. 

Pretty broad statement.  having higher percentages does help with attracting more people from those groups, what's wrong with that. Being diverse has everything to do with "Red and White"

Right. People should worry more about red and whilte and not if the latest recruiting commercial had enough asian canadians in it.  If you don't want a 50'000 a year job because someone mispronounced the letter R in a commercial well how do you debate that?

Not sure what that has to do with the CF trying to be more diverse.

A more diverse CF will mean Canadians will more readily identify with the CF, right?  There are  black female soldiers in the CF so as a black female I feel like I'm better represented.  My argument is that  even when the CF is 100% diverse with 33.3% male, 33.3% female, 33.3% transgender, an exact equal number of heterosexal, homosexual and bi tri sexual persons and all races imaginable- the minute whatever diverse group conflicts with the CF or something to do with the government all of the diversity in the CF won't mean shit. It will be CF goons in green nazi uniforms bla bla bla.

I understand the CF is just following what the government has set out. I just think as the organization charged with the defense of our country we have more important things to worry about and can spend our limited money on more significant things.

 

[Towards_the_gap]

Right. People should worry more about red and whilte and not if the latest recruiting commercial had enough asian canadians in it.  If you don't want a 50'000 a year job because someone mispronounced the letter R in a commercial well how do you debate that?

HA!!  ;D

 

[jrst]

As a woman, and therefore one of these "target" groups... I guess... I have to say I hate hearing about pushing for diversity in any workplace.  If some one hires me, I want everyone to know that I got hired because I was the best person for the job.  I don't want people I work with thinking/saying I got hired because we needed a token female.  If you look at the target goals, they don't really represent the diversity of Canada anyways.  I can't seem to find the post with the number, but I believe the target for women in the CF was around 25%? (some one can feel free to correct me) - I'm pretty sure us women make up more than 25% of Canada    So by all means, the CF should reach out to different communities, but like others have said, don't hire us because you want to be more diverse, hire us because we are a better candidate.

 

[aesop081]

I just think as the organization charged with the defense of our country we have more important things to worry about and can spend our limited money on more significant things.

If we continue to alienate population groups that do not fit the "white guy" profile, we will have something more important to worry about. We will have to worry about having less and less people to fill the ranks of the CF.

I am one of the less PC guys you will ever meet. I do recognize the long-term utility of having minorities look at CF members from that group and say "that could be me" as the composition of Canada's population is rapidly shifting. We have to set ourselves up for long-terms success. The current base of recruiting for the CF is shrinking and the rest are largely hesitant. We have to change that. Not to simply have more of whatever race but to simply have people to recruit later on.



Some here would benefit from some training in employment equity legislation, diversity and demographics beyond a simple news article and PC/anti-PC rhetoric.

don't hire us because you want to be more diverse, hire us because we are a better candidate.

FFS, we do not hire anything other than the best candidate. We do not turn people away because they are not part of the groups we have targets for. make an effort to understand that. We are not mandate to hire X% of whatevers. We are targeting groups who have traditionally shied away from the CF. The organization can only benefit when we find the best person and having a larger pool of applicants is a good thing.

 

[Strike]

jrst - The CF targets specific groups in its advertising but does not choose one person over the other based on race or gender. They choose based on ability. So worrying that people think you got in because of a quota system that doesn't exist is something that, well, you really don't need to worry about.

 

[mariomike]

Some here would benefit from some training in employment equity legislation, diversity and demographics beyond a simple news article and PC/anti-PC rhetoric.

For reference,
"Canadian Forces Employment Equity Regulations":
http://laws-lois.justice.gc.ca/eng/regulations/SOR-2002-421/index.html

 

[Eye In The Sky]

I think there is confusion about promoting diversity to attract a different group of applicants and hiring someone because they are diverse.

Nope, I don't think there is any confusion, but thanks for the lesson anyways.

The demographic the CF should be targetting is CANADIANS.  All of 'em.

 

[aesop081]

The demographic the CF should be targetting is CANADIANS.  All of 'em.

Last time i check, that is the case.

 

[Remius]

I don't see it as a very important issue right now considering the state of the CF and the issues we have especially surrounding money.
I would rather see more time and effort put into other things like fixing military housing, veterans benefits, upgrading equipment, ammunition, physical fitness.  I've found the CFs attempts to make the CF more diverse looks forced and hollow.  12 million dollars annually on these commercial that just offend people they are trying to attract?

That's because you aren't looking at the big picture.  The general population things army=infantry, air force=pilots and Navy=sailors.  You have to get out and inform people of what we have to offer and you need to spend money on advertising to do it.  Word of mouth doesn't cut it.  We still have critical shortages in trades and a lot has to do with people not knowing that these even exist in the CF.  Also, this might be news flash, but we have a severe shortage in skilled trades.  techs, mechs etc etc.  Strangely enough, a lot of new Canadians actually come over here with with those skills.  So why not make the effort to go and get them?  Being aware of their cultural norms etc can make a huge difference in getting to join our team.

If someone doesn't want to work for the CF then too bad for them.

If we don't make the effort to go and get the best qualified person and show/inform them why we are the employer of choice then too bad for us.  We went through and are still going through tough times because we failed to do that and had to play catch up.  Doctors, Engineers, Naval techs etc etc.

Can you explain to me how?  How can soldiers serve the interests of Canada and Canadians better based off their race?

Again, diversity helps us as an organisation serve the interest of Canada. There are plenty of examples.  What do you think the impact is of a say, I don't know, a couple of Haitian born canadians that can speak creole if say we were to do something like relief operations in Haiti?  Do you think that would help us?  Or how about every year they make staff checks asking for lists of people that can speak languages other than English and French?  Do you think they are doing that for giggles or maybe they are identifying particular skill sets that can help us on operations abroad?  Or how about a ship that enters a foreign port for re-supply, do you think that someone speaking the language might help?  Or how about a Padre that might be of a non-christian denomination?  Think that might be useful?  Or how about if you have to deal with a woman that's been raped in some warzone, might be nice to have a woman with you to help you with that.

If you say you've done countless diversity events (I can't even begin to guess what that is?) I'll believe you and if you say it's appreciated then I'll believe that too- but I still don't see how it makes our forces stronger or in a better position to protect Canada.

 

I'll explain. A diversity event can be anything from a visit to an all girls school to talk about what we have to offer (it helps when we send a female recruiter), having a booth at a trade fair on a local reserve or something like the women's show, remote recruiting activities in the Arctic etc etc.

A more diverse CF will mean Canadians will more readily identify with the CF, right?  There are  black female soldiers in the CF so as a black female I feel like I'm better represented.  My argument is that  even when the CF is 100% diverse with 33.3% male, 33.3% female, 33.3% transgender, an exact equal number of heterosexal, homosexual and bi tri sexual persons and all races imaginable- the minute whatever diverse group conflicts with the CF or something to do with the government all of the diversity in the CF won't mean crap. It will be CF goons in green nazi uniforms bla bla bla.

So we are planning for conflicts with various diverse groups in Canada?  So you say that it doesn't matter if we try to achieve 25% female representation in the CF because somehow it means squat if and when women take up arms in revolt against Canada?  I think you are missing the point of what diversity in the CF is.

As a side note: sexual orientation is NOT a targetted diversity group.

 

[Eye In The Sky]

Last time i check, that is the case.

Exactly.  Which is why I don't see an relevant point to the CBC article or the points some of the people made in it.  ;D

 

[Eye In The Sky]

That's because you aren't looking at the big picture.  The general population things army=infantry, air force=pilots and Navy=sailors.  You have to get out and inform people of what we have to offer and you need to spend money on advertising to do it.  Word of mouth doesn't cut it.  We still have critical shortages in trades and a lot has to do with people not knowing that these even exist in the CF.  Also, this might be news flash, but we have a severe shortage in skilled trades.  techs, mechs etc etc.  Strangely enough, a lot of new Canadians actually come over here with with those skills.  So why not make the effort to go and get them?  Being aware of their cultural norms etc can make a huge difference in getting to join our team.


If we don't make the effort to go and get the best qualified person and show/inform them why we are the employer of choice then too bad for us.  We went through and are still going through tough times because we failed to do that and had to play catch up.  Doctors, Engineers, Naval techs etc etc.

Again, diversity helps us as an organisation serve the interest of Canada. There are plenty of examples.  What do you think the impact is of a say, I don't know, a couple of Haitian born canadians that can speak creole if say we were to do something like relief operations in Haiti?  Do you think that would help us?  Or how about every year they make staff checks asking for lists of people that can speak languages other than English and French?  Do you think they are doing that for giggles or maybe they are identifying particular skill sets that can help us on operations abroad?  Or how about a ship that enters a foreign port for re-supply, do you think that someone speaking the language might help?  Or how about a Padre that might be of a non-christian denomination?  Think that might be useful?  Or how about if you have to deal with a woman that's been raped in some warzone, might be nice to have a woman with you to help you with that.
 

I'll explain. A diversity event can be anything from a visit to an all girls school to talk about what we have to offer (it helps when we send a female recruiter), having a booth at a trade fair on a local reserve or something like the women's show, remote recruiting activities in the Arctic etc etc.


So we are planning for conflicts with various diverse groups in Canada?  So you say that it doesn't matter if we try to achieve 25% female representation in the CF because somehow it means squat if and when women take up arms in revolt against Canada?  I think you are missing the point of what diversity in the CF is.

As a side note: sexual orientation is NOT a targetted diversity group.

Some good points on making sure we get the CF recruiting message to ALL Cdn's in your post.

BUT...the article indicates another reason for the targetted recruiting, which is solely %s and #s.

 

[aesop081]

Exactly.  Which is why I don't see an relevant point to the CBC article or the points some of the people made in it.  ;D

It was a typical CBC article: Poorly done.

Think of what the CF is doing as selling cars. I know, just flow with me here.

You build and sell cars. You traditional client base has been white males. Your cars have always sold well with this group.

Your cars have never sold well with Canadians of Chinese background. They see your cars as "cars for rednecks" despite never having advertised them as such.

After 40 years of being in business, you realize that the number of white males (your traditional base) is rapidly shrinking and that Canadians of Chinese background are growing exponentially, to the point where they will be a majority in 20 years.

You quickly realize that, to stay in business and keep selling cars, you have to change how your cars are perceived. You have to adjust to market conditions ( less and less white guys and more & more chinese).

You still sell cars to white guys but if you want to maintain the same sales numbers, you need new customers.

 

[Remius]

Some good points on making sure we get the CF recruiting message to ALL Cdn's in your post.

BUT...the article indicates another reason for the targetted recruiting, which is solely %s and #s.

An article written by the CBC right?  %s and # aren't the reasons for targetted recruiting, those are the benchmarks we've set for ourselves. I've already listed plenty of reasons why we do it, mainly to increase certain demographics.

The alternative is to do selective recruiting like the PS, RCMP etc.  So pick your poison.  I for one am happy the CF is trying to achieve its targets the way it is.

 

[Eye In The Sky]

Now, what you 2 guys just posted make some sense.  The CBC story?  Their spin on it and some of the comments by the people in the article just made my bloodpressure increase.

I am not a fan of the PC-bandwagon.  Best person/ppl/Canadian for the job. 

 

[aesop081]

some of the comments by the people in the article just made my bloodpressure increase.

That's where you went wrong  ;D

I am not a fan of the PC-bandwagon.  Best person/ppl/Canadian for the job.

I am not either. As i said, i am one of the least PC guy around. What the CF is doing is not about being PC.

 

[mariomike]

Article in the Canadian Military Journal on the topic.

"Diversity Best Practices in Military Organizations in Canada, Australia, the United Kingdom, and the United States":
http://www.journal.forces.gc.ca/vo9/no3/05-scoppio-eng.asp

"Diversity and Equity

The term diversity is adopted as the new business approach to address both internal and external diversity, and can include: culture, ethnicity, language, religion, ability and disability, education, socio-economic background, and sexual orientation. The diversity discourse reaches a broad spectrum of stakeholders, in that everyone feels part of it.

Former concepts of equity and equality were linked to treating everyone the same, as in ‘equal pay for equal work.’ The new approach recognizes that by ignoring differences we also ignore individuals’ legitimate needs. Equity and equality are about fairness, not about the equal treatment of people. 1

Equity legislation still encounters resistance among those who see it as lowering the standards. Others feel they might be disadvantaged. Finally, those belonging to certain groups might feel labelled. However, the approach of this legislation is not to impose quotas or hire people who are not qualified to do the job, although sometimes it may be necessary to treat certain groups differently in order to be equitable.

While legislation is key to making progress toward achieving greater equality in the workplace, it should not form the sole basis of diversity policies, programs and practices. It should be considered a stepping-stone toward addressing inequalities in the workplace experienced by historically disadvantaged groups."

1. Judge Rosalie Abella, Royal Commission Report – Equality in Employment. (Ottawa: Canadian Government Publishing Centre, 1984).

 

[Eye In The Sky]

That's where you went wrong  ;D

Damn!  Sucked in by CBC again.  I should have known better, in retrospect, and simply....performed the appropriate IA  :Tin-Foil-Hat:

 

[Jarnhamar]

If we continue to alienate population groups that do not fit the "white guy" profile, we will have something more important to worry about. We will have to worry about having less and less people to fill the ranks of the CF.

I am one of the less PC guys you will ever meet. I do recognize the long-term utility of having minorities look at CF members from that group and say "that could be me" as the composition of Canada's population is rapidly shifting. We have to set ourselves up for long-terms success. The current base of recruiting for the CF is shrinking and the rest are largely hesitant. We have to change that. Not to simply have more of whatever race but to simply have people to recruit later on.

I concede to your points.  It's hard to accept that the current base for the CF is shrinking when one hears that certain trades are full and there are 5 times too many people waiting to get in.

Perhaps some of the effort spent trying to recruit a more diverse base of Canadians could be spent unscrewing the CFRC mess which seems to stop or slow so many people from getting into the CF, including the diverse Canadians we have attracted. 

For reference,
"Canadian Forces Employment Equity Regulations":
http://laws-lois.justice.gc.ca/eng/regulations/SOR-2002-421/index.html

I'm going to read this thanks for the link.

That's because you aren't looking at the big picture.  The general population things army=infantry, air force=pilots and Navy=sailors.  You have to get out and inform people of what we have to offer and you need to spend money on advertising to do it.  Word of mouth doesn't cut it.  We still have critical shortages in trades and a lot has to do with people not knowing that these even exist in the CF.  Also, this might be news flash, but we have a severe shortage in skilled trades.  techs, mechs etc etc.  Strangely enough, a lot of new Canadians actually come over here with with those skills.  So why not make the effort to go and get them?  Being aware of their cultural norms etc can make a huge difference in getting to join our team.

Perhaps I am not.  My picture is painted from an infantry trench so maybe I'm not seeing what the generals see, so to speak.  Again I find it really hard to see  that there are critical shortages given the amount of people waiting on courses, CTs, transfers and all that. People are waiting years to get in, if there IS a shortage I don not think it is for want of interest.  I understand that there are some cultural issues but I stand by my opinion that worrying about who we are offending by pronouncing R properly is a huge waste of time. (If someone is THAT nit picky than I can only imagine what other kind of issues they would bring coming into the CF)

If we don't make the effort to go and get the best qualified person and show/inform them why we are the employer of choice then too bad for us.  We went through and are still going through tough times because we failed to do that and had to play catch up.  Doctors, Engineers, Naval techs etc etc.

 
I don't nessairily see the CF aiming to recruit a target diversity number as the CF "going to get the best person for the job". They're simply trying to get X% of different races.

Again, diversity helps us as an organisation serve the interest of Canada. There are plenty of examples.  What do you think the impact is of a say, I don't know, a couple of Haitian born canadians that can speak creole if say we were to do something like relief operations in Haiti?  Do you think that would help us?  Or how about every year they make staff checks asking for lists of people that can speak languages other than English and French?

Very excellent point. 

Do you think they are doing that for giggles or maybe they are identifying particular skill sets that can help us on operations abroad?

your sarcasm aside I can again see the merits of your points- but do you think that was the original intention or a by product? 

I'll explain. A diversity event can be anything from a visit to an all girls school to talk about what we have to offer (it helps when we send a female recruiter), having a booth at a trade fair on a local reserve or something like the women's show, remote recruiting activities in the Arctic etc etc.

Makes sense.

So we are planning for conflicts with various diverse groups in Canada?  So you say that it doesn't matter if we try to achieve 25% female representation in the CF because somehow it means squat if and when women take up arms in revolt against Canada?  I think you are missing the point of what diversity in the CF is.

My context is that if someones train of thought is that having X % of Y group will mean that Y group views the CF more favorable then the minute Y group has a beef with the government for whatever reason then all the X% of said people in the CF won't mean shit. It's a fairly narrow example but one I've heard people argue before.  If that isn't the reasoning behind the diversity then the example doesn't apply.

As a side note: sexual orientation is NOT a targetted diversity group.

Nope not yet but it's not inconceivable that the CF might try to tackle that next- simply in order to better represent ALL Canadians.

 

[aesop081]

I concede to your points.  It's hard to accept that the current base for the CF is shrinking when one hears that certain trades are full and there are 5 times too many people waiting to get in.

OZ, you are not thinking far enough down the line. Think 20 years from now. If we want an adequate, sustainable pool of applicants in 20-30 years & beyond, we have to start changing attitudes and perceptions today.