Alleged Institutional Racism/solutions in CAF (merged)

[Trick]

Growing up in an Indian family and around other immigrants I feel like "targeting" is a good thing. It's not something that's an obvious option for a lot of ethnic groups, especially once they come to Canada. For the most part it's not an issue of disapproval of the military, it's just completely out of their minds. Going out of the way to expose 1st/2nd generation immigrants to the CF is a good thing. I also would never want a "quota" but I do think it's important to try to have a military that reflects the population of the country, and that population is changing.

 

[George Wallace]

..........I also would never want a "quota" but I do think it's important to try to have a military that reflects the population of the country, and that population is changing.

It isn't quite to the point yet where our demographics reflect the predominance of Black Somali Muslim women being in the majority.    >

 

[Eye In The Sky]

It may be fine, to you, but it exists and it is an important difference. If we had quotas, we would be turning away some people in order to keep spots open for others. The CF is not doing that.

Given the distinction/difference you've indicated, no there is not a quota system. 

We are doing exactly that (although the recruiting forum here eposes some of our deficiencies on a daily basis). However, if you have not noticed, "white guys" is not the most growing demographic in Canada. It doesn't hurt recruiting to have people of various backgrounds in the CF, since if we keep counting on "white guys", there wont be anyone in the CF in a generation or 2.

I guess what irks me is the idea of "we don't have enough Xs" or "we don't have enough Os".  If not as many "insert group being targetted" are applying to the CF as someone thinks should be, maybe they just aren't interested.  Not everyone wants the military lifestyle, being away alot, deployed to ops all over the place, etc.  There is a significant loss of what most people see as 'freedom' with military service.  Then there are those in Canada who just don't care about giving anything to this country, period.

Some of the statements in the article make me shake my head, such as....

But NDP MP and military procurement critic Matthew Kellway said the data masks an even more troubling trend. Women mostly serve in traditional roles in the military, and constant conflict between aboriginal groups and the federal government has thwarted efforts to attract more aboriginals to serve.

"If the Canadian Forces wants the support of the Canadian population, it's imperative that they reflect the diversity of the population," said Kellway.

WTF.  So, based on this line of thinking, I should go to the firehall where I live and see how "diverse" they are.  If they don't have 23.4% of this group, and 14.7% of that group, they should not expect my support.  I am more inclined to judge them on 'can they do the job, or not'. 

Walter Dorn, a professor of defence studies at the Royal Military College of Canada, said the military is doing much work to improve the numbers – but still needs to do more to change the "culture."

What "culture" is he referring to exactly?  "Improve the numbers"...this is the stuff that irks me.  We take any applicants that qualify, merit list them, and offer TOS to the ones who are the best amongst their fellow applicants.  I fail to see how that system is failing.

"Despite the best efforts, there's still a tendency for the white males to dominate in the Canadian Forces, and that's only natural. By being themselves they're going to have tendencies and biases that aren't shared by other communities," he said. "A lot of that is nuanced and subtle, but it's definitely there."

:

I think the best applicants should get the job, full stop.  The CF can do all the 'targetted recruiting' in the world, but if those targetted groups (1) aren't interested and don't apply (2) aren't the best applicants/don't merit higher than others and/or (3) wash out in Basic or Initial Occ/Classification training, then I fail to see what more can be done.  Then again, someone will start quoting #s and % of this group and that group (like in the article) and people will wag their fingers and say "tsk tsk, the CF needs to do more, these percentages are WAY off".

I have no doubt if the CF does some really bang-on targetted recruiting to say, Aboriginal groups, and a whole bunch of them join, then we will see a CBC article with some critic yabbering on about how the CF is *targetting* aboriginal youth to military service, but in the negative context.    :

Target the best Canadians from all walks of life and backgrounds (which we do), select the best of the applicants (which we do) and hold them to the standards in the Trg System as they go thru (which we do).

So I am not seing what is broke and why there is a need to try to fix it (outside of concerns that fall under the PC umbrella).  :2c:

 

[brian8225]

Diversity is a hot topic and something every major organization is trying to effectively manage, to the point of appointing a C-level diversity officer, CDO, (think CEO, CFO, etc.).

People, including recruiters/interviewers at any organization, may have a subconscious bias or simply likely someone more because they can relate to them. For me, if I interview a guy that plays golf, likes MMA, etc, I may be more inclined to hire that person vs. say a female with no shared interests/hobbies. People tend to be more comfortable with like minded people, but a homogeneous group of people is less likely to bring anything new to the table or learn anything from each other than a diverse team. You get tangible benefits to an organization by making diversity an initiative without sacrificing the high level of standards required for the role. Part of that is exactly what the CF is doing, which is getting the message out to the nontraditional applicants so that you can get a broader pool of applicants to choose from.

Every company would love to double/triple the number of qualified people applying for a job, because the odds of getting the best people from all walks of life is going to increase resulting in a stronger team over all.

This is NOT about hiring people that can't do the job or hiring someone less qualified than the white guy simply to hit a target, and that's simply a short sighted view of what a diversity initiative entails.

 

[Bluebulldog]

Just looking at the numbers, things get skewed somewhat.

Much of the visible minority population in Canada exists in urban areas, where the job market offers more opportunities. Most urban areas also offer more in the way of easily accessible post secondary education as well, in the form of career colleges, community colleges, and Universities.

The attraction to the CF from persons living in rural areas has always been there. The ability to receive training and education, as well as a career is very attractive to folks who live long distances away from the nearest large centres. The number of visible minorities living in rural areas probably is close to what's mirrored in the make up of the CF currently.

Coincidence? I think not.

 

[Trick]

Yeah I definitely agree with that. Living in Toronto I can tell you pretty much all my friends have never really thought of the CF all that much be they black, white, brown, w/e.

 

[mariomike]

WTF.  So, based on this line of thinking, I should go to the firehall where I live and see how "diverse" they are.  If they don't have 23.4% of this group, and 14.7% of that group, they should not expect my support. I am more inclined to judge them on 'can they do the job, or not'

Regarding that,
"I also explained that women and visible minorities, once qualified, are placed in their own group and that each class hired would require 50% from that group and 50% from the white male group. I further explained, that usually after the first class, the visible minority group is exhausted.":
http://www.torontofirefighters.org/OSS/images/firewatch/spring2009.pdf
Page 9.

 

[Jarnhamar]

When we put together our team for the olympics do we go out of our way to target certain %'s of visible minorities in order to reflect that the olympic team is made up of a diverse group of Canadians from across the country and all ethnic groups?

Or do we pick athletes according to skill...


Looks like the Olympics are concerned more with skill and the CF with image.

This team is racist and I cannot support them in the Olympics since they clearly do not have an assortment of races, like Canada does.

 

[Remius]

That's a really poor comparaison for so many reasons.

 

[Jarnhamar]

That's a really poor comparaison for so many reasons.

Like?

 

[Remius]

Like?

Oh I don't know, how about the fact that we are a Government organisation that is required to achieve various mandates and we are given direction to meet our targets including diversity and the Oluypic team is something completely different?  Our overall reason for being is completely different than the Canadian Olympic team?  You show one pic of the rowing team, how about all of team canada?  I bet you they are way closer to a reflection of canadian diversity than the CF is.  Why?  Because some cultures and groups are into some sports and activities that others aren't. 

As good as the Olypmpics are for our national pride, those athletes do not serve Canadians, they represent our country yes, but it's about individual achievement.  Those athletes do not swear an oath to the Queen and are not expected to serve ALL Canadians.  We do. And we should strive to reflect that even if it is impossible at this time.

 

[Remius]

And a few other things, too.  If the Olympics is about the best then why have women's and men's events?  Why not just combine it all?

The reason we have successful athletes is maybe because the Olympic Canadian Team actually went and attracted people from all diverse backgrounds and that diversity has actually helped them?  We certainly wouldn't do as well without it.

http://sharenews.com/canada%E2%80%99s-olympians-reflect-country%E2%80%99s-diversity-official/

Found this after doing a quick google search.  I'm sure it wouldn't be too hard to find actual numbers.

 

[Bluebulldog]

Oh I don't know, how about the fact that we are a Government organisation that is required to achieve various mandates and we are given direction to meet our targets including diversity and the Oluypic team is something completely different?  Our overall reason for being is completely different than the Canadian Olympic team?  You show one pic of the rowing team, how about all of team canada?  I bet you they are way closer to a reflection of canadian diversity than the CF is.  Why?  Because some cultures and groups are into some sports and activities that others aren't. 

As good as the Olypmpics are for our national pride, those athletes do not serve Canadians, they represent our country yes, but it's about individual achievement.  Those athletes do not swear an oath to the Queen and are not expected to serve ALL Canadians.  We do. And we should strive to reflect that even if it is impossible at this time.

Crantor, with respect to your argument, the Canadian Olympic Team is heavily funded by the Federal Govt. As such, and given that the games are a far more public display of Canadians, one would wonder why this kind of target isn't set for it as well. Most likely because "owning the podium" takes precidence over filling in a tick box on the diversity worksheet.

http://www.cbc.ca/sports/story/2012/03/13/sp-olympic-funding-canada.html

OTP now divides about $70 million annually in federal government funding between summer and winter sports.

Right person for the job, period.

 

[Jarnhamar]

Oh I don't know, how about the fact that we are a Government organisation that is required to achieve various mandates and we are given direction to meet our targets including diversity and the Oluypic team is something completely different?  Our overall reason for being is completely different than the Canadian Olympic team?  You show one pic of the rowing team, how about all of team canada?  I bet you they are way closer to a reflection of canadian diversity than the CF is.  Why?  Because some cultures and groups are into some sports and activities that others aren't. 

As good as the Olypmpics are for our national pride, those athletes do not serve Canadians, they represent our country yes, but it's about individual achievement.  Those athletes do not swear an oath to the Queen and are not expected to serve ALL Canadians.  We do. And we should strive to reflect that even if it is impossible at this time.

My argument being that the Olympic team does a better job at representing the different colours of Canadians. The CF would be better off putting effort and money in training and equipment.
The colour of a soldiers skin doesn't reflect their ability to serve "ALL" Canadians. Taking an oath to Canada does.  You really think people care what % of the CF is made up of their own ethnicity?  If the CF does something good then they are proud because it's "their" soldiers. If their group comes into conflict with the CF for whatever reason you can bet they aren't going to concern themselves for an instant over how many of their people wear the uniform.
Uniform = government = evil for telling them they can't do something. 

The minute a group comes into conflict with the CF being involved they're going to look at "their own people" with suspicion and ask them why they are siding with the evil government and not "their own people".  It's the nature of the beast. 7.5% X isn't going to change a thing.  How about Red and White as colours?

Just last month I mentioned doing away with the Indian act (To begin solving issues Natives have) and a board member commented that if that happened Native Americans in uniform would have a big choice to make (or something along those lines). Wonder what was implied..


I have no idea where you are going with the womens and mens events. Why have 2 standards for physical fitness for men and women in the CF?

You might want to check your facts about where money for the Olympic team comes from in all it's forms.

 

[Jed]

Our Canadian Rowing team has the prerequisite token short guy as the coxn.  >

 

[Bluebulldog]

Our Canadian Rowing team has the prerequisite token short guy as the coxn.  >

:rofl:

..thought the same darn thing...

 

[pthebeau]

And a few other things, too.  If the Olympics is about the best then why have women's and men's events?  Why not just combine it all?

That statement fails to establish any kind of point.  Men and Women have very notable physiological differences affecting the levels of strength they can achieve.  Much in the same way there are weight categories for certain sports.  You just cannot compete a 63kg male against a 105kg male in weightlifting.  Are you trying to say that there are such differences and limitations when comparing ethnicities??  Would that explain how there are athletes from all types of ethnicities that are neck and neck in almost every type of competition?  Compare an asian man to black man, to a white man, in the olympics in any given competition, and you will NOT see a pattern of "limitation" for any given ethnicity.  Compare male athletes to female athletes, and you can see a consistant difference.  Apples and Oranges, on both your statement, and the point you were trying to make with it.


ObedientiaZelum's poor comparison is not poor at all.  He's pointing out the fact that any given "team" is not chosen based on ethnicity, it is based on merit.
The Olympic team in his comparison was not chosen base on ethnicity, it was based on merit, supporting his very good point. 

Appreciate the similarity in the next two paragraphs:
Olympic qualifiers is a competition yielding a name and a result.  If the result is good enough to compete at the Olympics, and Canada has a spot for the name, that person gets to represent his country, end of story.  If the entire Canadian olympic team was 100% aboriginal (just an example), I know that they are the ones best suited to represent my country in a given sport, thanks to the qualifiers, and would never look to see if their ethnicity reflects our popluation's diversity.  It is completely irrelevant, and a waste of my time.

The Canadian Forces recruiting process is an application process yielding a name and a result.  If the result (CFAT, Interview, Medical, etc) is good enough to be part of the Canadian Forces, and Canada has a sport for the name in a given trade, that preson gets to defend his coutnry, end of story.  If the entire Canadian Forces was 100% aboriginal (just an example), I know that they are the ones best suited to defend my country in a given trade, thanks to the recruiting process, and would never look to see if their ethnicity reflects our population's diversity.  It is completely irrelevant, and a waste of my time.

Do you still fail to see the comparison?

Really at the end of the line, its a matter of making sure that every single Canadian citizen is aware of the fact that he is welcome to defend our beautiful country regardless of his ethnicity.  Which leads me to agree with the frustration of the need for "targets" and how our force should represent the diversity of our population.  Sorry, #1 is, our force should protect and support our population to the best of our ability, and no ignorant politician or CBC news article should distract us from that.

 

[Oldgateboatdriver]

Olympic team may be a good analogy here for other reasons:

The overall team has reasonable diversity reflecting Canada, but if you break it out by individual sport, you find out that for various cultural reasons, some specific minorities are attracted to specific sports: for instances, black Canadians seem more prominent in track and field or basketball, more asian Canadian are found in volley-ball and badminton, etc, etc. However, remember that  the Jamaicans broke into bobsleiding with determination and elite track and field stars. The talent is there and if, for instance, we could convince some more Caribbean-Canadian to give a try to say, rowing sports, I bet many of them would  qualify for the team as easily as their "white" counterparts.

I suspect its the same for the military: While there are candidates out there from the various "minority-groups" that meet and even exceed all the requirements, they don't pick the military as a career for various" cultural" reasons. So we can increase the efforts at getting them interested, but pick only the best candidates at the time of recruiting. If this means that reaching targets that, in our view, reflect the Canadian society as a whole requires to put double our recruiting efforts into reaching these minority-groups compared to the majority of Canadian, but then continue hiring just the best, then so be it. I suspect the qualified members of those minority groups would not want it any other way.

 

[Eye In The Sky]

Our Canadian Rowing team has the prerequisite token targetted percentage of short vertically challenged guy non-identified ethnic origin Canadians as the coxn.  >

FTFY in the interest of the PC-Police. 

 

[Remius]

My argument being that the Olympic team does a better job at representing the different colours of Canadians. The CF would be better off putting effort and money in training and equipment.
So  we shouldn't put effort and money into making the CF diverse?

The colour of a soldiers skin doesn't reflect their ability to serve "ALL" Canadians. Taking an oath to Canada does.  You really think people care what % of the CF is made up of their own ethnicity?

I never said that the colour of their skin has anything to to with their ability.  But the diversity of our forces helps us as an organisation serve ALL Canadians.  As a matter of fact I do think people care about the CF being inclusive.  Having done countless diversity events for all targetted groups all across the country I can tell you that the effort is appreciated by just about every group I've dealt with.

The minute a group comes into conflict with the CF being involved they're going to look at "their own people" with suspicion and ask them why they are siding with the evil government and not "their own people".  It's the nature of the beast. 7.5% X isn't going to change a thing.  How about Red and White as colours?

Pretty broad statement.  having higher percentages does help with attracting more people from those groups, what's wrong with that. Being diverse has everything to do with "Red and White"

Just last month I mentioned doing away with the Indian act (To begin solving issues Natives have) and a board member commented that if that happened Native Americans in uniform would have a big choice to make (or something along those lines). Wonder what was implied..

Not sure what that has to do with the CF trying to be more diverse.

I have no idea where you are going with the womens and mens events. Why have 2 standards for physical fitness for men and women in the CF?

Maybe its because the olympics try to be inclusive? No arguments about your question for two standards.

You might want to check your facts about where money for the Olympic team comes from in all it's forms.

Did I mention anything or facts about where money from the Olympics came from?