• Thanks for stopping by. Logging in to a registered account will remove all generic ads. Please reach out with any questions or concerns.

Active Shooter In NS. April 19 2020

RedFive

Member
Subscriber
Reaction score
353
Points
830
Well, I guess all the rumours I've heard of H Division being a corrupt hole filled with NCO's and Officers who have never left the Province and stick rigidly to "that's the way its always been done here" are true. Turns out the rumours of awful leadership were also true... :oops:
 

Booter

Sr. Member
Reaction score
1,001
Points
810
ridiculous texts aside- I’d love to know what the people on this thread would have done with that decision. Careful now- because several hundred officers were involved in the manhunt- In a deeper context than the ERT team so if you’re giving automatic two weeks off- I’ll need a full-size explanation of how you would backfill positions.

Also- psychologists only recommend the time off- A medical doctor has to approve it. So without that there wasn’t a mechanism to give it. Not a huge issue to overcome but it’s a consideration.

There is no automatic decompression leave when the teams shoot.
 

Booter

Sr. Member
Reaction score
1,001
Points
810
Yes essentially they were being asked to be reassigned to admin duties for several/two weeks. Requires medical signing off.

It wasn’t a big ask. But we also don’t know what is happening away from WhatsApp. I find articles like these very suspicious.
 

lenaitch

Army.ca Veteran
Reaction score
1,669
Points
1,040
How about back-filling with members/teams from other divisions. There were a lot of front-line, non-tactical members who could have done with a decompress as well. Big cost, big disruption for sure, but we're talking the metal health of the members.
 

Booter

Sr. Member
Reaction score
1,001
Points
810
How about back-filling with members/teams from other divisions. There were a lot of front-line, non-tactical members who could have done with a decompress as well. Big cost, big disruption for sure, but we're talking the metal health of the members.
That’s not how moving hundreds of bodies works. And exactly the inch deep solution I expected to hear- all those bodies would be vacated from their positions in other places being paid for by municipalities or functions that aren’t compensated by Nova Scotia,

When and how would you have gotten them there? Would you Have the ones that need the relief work for a while until you get people in place? Which leave type is this again? How do we track and assign who was close enough in the 200 hundred officers to get the decompression? Again- out west an officer in a shooting can be back the following week- so what am I using to do this?

Atlantic region is first among equals for not having enough officers per capita.

The staffing of these places is done incorrectly when the only solution people have is to rob Peter to pay Paul,

Sure- put a system in place with an understanding of how it would be structured and paid for. But it doesn’t exist now. And certainly didn’t then.

You know who else would have been under enormous conflicting pressures and also would have been rung out? The officers sending those texts who also were dealing with the investigation and the Ottawa pressures.

There should be a better system. But retroactive goodwill is worth a handful of dick. It didn’t exist and the division works with the rules it has. This is something that should be addressed now- but it’s not something as easy as is suggested.

Backfilling teams means someone else has to go without a team- and where the teams have “part time” members that means their detachment and regular job goes empty AND the division loses their specialist.
 
Last edited:

brihard

Army.ca Legend
Mentor
Reaction score
8,496
Points
1,110
That’s not how moving hundreds of bodies works. And exactly the inch deep solution I expected to hear- all those bodies would be vacated from their positions in other places being paid for by municipalities or functions that aren’t compensated by Nova Scotia,

When and how would you have gotten them there? Would you Have the ones that need the relief work for a while until you get people in place? Which leave type is this again? How do we track and assign who was close enough in the 200 hundred officers to get the decompression? Again- out west an officer in a shooting can be back the following week- so what am I using to do this?

Atlantic region is first among equals for not having enough officers per capita.

The staffing of these places is done incorrectly when the only solution people have is to rob Peter to pay Paul,

Sure- put a system in place with an understanding of how it would be structured and paid for. But it doesn’t exist now. And certainly didn’t then.

You know who else would have been under enormous conflicting pressures and also would have been rung out? The officers sending those texts who also were dealing with the investigation and the Ottawa pressures.

There should be a better system. But retroactive goodwill is worth a handful of dick. It didn’t exist and the division works with the rules it has. This is something that should be addressed now- but it’s not something as easy as is suggested.

Backfilling teams means someone else has to go without a team- and where the teams have “part time” members that means their detachment and regular job goes empty AND the division loses their specialist.

I think there are two issues here. One is the handling of the request by the Nova Scotia ERT to go ‘admin only’ and get some psychological recuperation. The other issue is having the curtain pulled back and seeing a senior officer talking to an also-senior subordinate about that team of police behind their backs like that, and the really derogatory way he referred to both their request, and prior similar actions by RCMP in New Brunswick following Moncton.

I have a close high school friend in the RCMP out in NS, and others in Ontario. My understanding is that a lot of RCMP members were surged from Ontario to backfill Nova Scotia members who were in a rough spot right after the shooting. Although it’s taking from Peter to pay Paul, I guess it was more of a short term loan than a robbery?

The more specialized the team, obviously the harder it is to backfill. Corollary to that- maybe the more specialized they are, the more their needs should be heard and respected in the wake of a massively shit situation. That, of course, is not to say that the members on general duty don’t also deserve as much consideration as can be given.

At a minimum, if your members come to you in distress and state a need the assist their psychological well being, maybe don’t cut them down in communications with another executive, and call their request a ‘circle jerk’.
 

Booter

Sr. Member
Reaction score
1,001
Points
810
except referring to “jittery j”, which is an old expression, what was the text that’s attacking the Moncton members? I feel like I’m missing some. All I see is the one saying that just because they got it there doesn’t mean it was correct. Which is right.

I don’t know Tim mills, at all, I actually know very few guys in that province beyond having to deal with their prehistoric viewpoints when dealing with things nationally (generally NCOs and up- so I don’t know the work all that well)

But it’s entirely possible for him to be correct that the guys should have had their decompression time figured out (I don’t think it would have been hard) and also that he could be a complete piece of shit- as per the text. They aren’t exclusive.

I know we re supposed to hate all the Mounties in Nova Scotia and Ottawa depending on which news story we read that day and what our biases are- but I don’t see the outrage here as being well placed. The news is not your friend CAF or Mountie, they write you as incompetent or racist/prejudiced no matter your level or position. It’s just which end of the organization they are pointing to that day.

And I’m saying that as a guy who is always in shit.

It appears that the “cutting down” has happened because the conversation was moved out of channels and into Politics. It’s not like this was the first response to the topic. That’s my read anyways. I don’t agree with the characterizations in the texts of what the team would be doing for two weeks. But I have had assholes working with me that I have called assholes in text messages so I may be the enemy.
 

mariomike

Moderator
Staff member
Directing Staff
Subscriber
Mentor
Reaction score
944
Points
1,260
Big cost, big disruption for sure, but we're talking the metal health of the members.

Out of curiousity, what, if anything, does the collective agreement have to say about that?

Our CA spelled it out.

Following a difficult or critical call - as defined by the paramedic - they are taken out of service and de-briefed by the staff psychologist.
Then sent home.

If they feel the need - and their physician and/or supervisor agree - they can take the next two 12-hour shifts off.
No loss of pay, or deduction from the member's sick bank.

When they return to duty, if they still feel the need, and have a note from their doctor, they can go on modified duty. ie: removal from 9-1-1 operations.

Eventually, if the PTSD is determined to be a Permanent Partial Disability ( PPD ), they are relocated into a "suitable" job. What is "suitable"? That is a real wild card. :)

If the pre-injury rate of pay is higher than the relocated position rate, then the pre-injury rate is to be maintained. It is understood that the pre-injury rate is subject to all wage increases negotiated

 

brihard

Army.ca Legend
Mentor
Reaction score
8,496
Points
1,110
except referring to “jittery j”, which is an old expression, what was the text that’s attacking the Moncton members? I feel like I’m missing some. All I see is the one saying that just because they got it there doesn’t mean it was correct. Which is right.

I don’t know Tim mills, at all, I actually know very few guys in that province beyond having to deal with their prehistoric viewpoints when dealing with things nationally (generally NCOs and up- so I don’t know the work all that well)

But it’s entirely possible for him to be correct that the guys should have had their decompression time figured out (I don’t think it would have been hard) and also that he could be a complete piece of shit- as per the text. They aren’t exclusive.

I know we re supposed to hate all the Mounties in Nova Scotia and Ottawa depending on which news story we read that day and what our biases are- but I don’t see the outrage here as being well placed. The news is not your friend CAF or Mountie, they write you as incompetent or racist/prejudiced no matter your level or position. It’s just which end of the organization they are pointing to that day.

And I’m saying that as a guy who is always in shit.

It appears that the “cutting down” has happened because the conversation was moved out of channels and into Politics. It’s not like this was the first response to the topic. That’s my read anyways. I don’t agree with the characterizations in the texts of what the team would be doing for two weeks. But I have had assholes working with me that I have called assholes in text messages so I may be the enemy.
The ‘jittery j’ thing is what I was referring to, yeah- to me that comes across as dripping with contempt towards how New Brunswick handled things for its team in the wake of Moncton. I think it’s a shitty way to talk about the troops, and about efforts to care for them.
 

Booter

Sr. Member
Reaction score
1,001
Points
810
Jittery J is an old expression usually used for their managements risk averse nature- inability to make decisions. Prehistoric kit. Won’t upgrade radios. Inspectors are financial holders for all detachment and uniform kit purchases. I sincerely doubt, which is worth as much as the opinion that is the opposite- because we don’t know, that it was meant in the context of people involved in the Bourque incident as individuals. But your take is as possible as mine.

It is not fair to characterize J Mounties especially in a Moncton context as anything less than people making do in extraordinary circumstance. But J division is always an outlier- prior to Jittery J we had the awful J division Mafia that took control of the force and froze any operational momentum for years under Commish Zaccardelli.

I’ll stop beating the horse, I’m just prickly because I was forwarded this dozens of time because of my interest in members health- and it was a confirmation for some of a problem. I’m just really cynical- I see it as frustrated peoples private messages- which have public interest attached to them so I get why they’re out there- but I think you’d be hard pressed to find a group of messages that you can’t get fired up over when their is conflict.

Remember the convoy Mounties from the ride? Like it’s meant between A and B, it’s not helpful for the outside observer 🤷‍♀️
 

lenaitch

Army.ca Veteran
Reaction score
1,669
Points
1,040
That’s not how moving hundreds of bodies works. And exactly the inch deep solution I expected to hear- all those bodies would be vacated from their positions in other places being paid for by municipalities or functions that aren’t compensated by Nova Scotia,

When and how would you have gotten them there? Would you Have the ones that need the relief work for a while until you get people in place? Which leave type is this again? How do we track and assign who was close enough in the 200 hundred officers to get the decompression? Again- out west an officer in a shooting can be back the following week- so what am I using to do this?

Atlantic region is first among equals for not having enough officers per capita.

The staffing of these places is done incorrectly when the only solution people have is to rob Peter to pay Paul,

Sure- put a system in place with an understanding of how it would be structured and paid for. But it doesn’t exist now. And certainly didn’t then.

You know who else would have been under enormous conflicting pressures and also would have been rung out? The officers sending those texts who also were dealing with the investigation and the Ottawa pressures.

There should be a better system. But retroactive goodwill is worth a handful of dick. It didn’t exist and the division works with the rules it has. This is something that should be addressed now- but it’s not something as easy as is suggested.

Backfilling teams means someone else has to go without a team- and where the teams have “part time” members that means their detachment and regular job goes empty AND the division loses their specialist.
The logistics, leave classifications and all the other administriva I would leave to the brass hats. How would they get there? Drive? Aviation Division? Air Canada? Would it be disruptive back home and have a cost? Sure. I don't see this as a Nova Scotia contract problem; I see this as a RCMP problem. Effective leadership means rising to the occasion to protect your members. Sure, a plan should be in place, but I will forgive anybody for not having contingencies or op plans that could have matched this incident.

A month and a bit ago, South Simcoe Police Service (100 members, 86K population) lost two members. For three days preceding the funerals, the OPP covered all of their calls. At least one was a barricaded person/tactical call. They had one day to put this together. I don't know from how far afield the the OPP members came but I can guarantee you that most will have came from contract detachments - police services paid for by the municipalities. Who paid for this service? Haven't a clue.
 

Booter

Sr. Member
Reaction score
1,001
Points
810
When there is any conflict at all anymore- people get inflammatory advice from a part time rep from NPF. They go right to social media, or their spouses do, trying to get political will or news interest. It doesn’t suit finding solutions.

In the messages they are dealing with the Employee relations people- so there is a literal mountain of things going on behind these 6 messages- and people are trying to leverage external pressure because it isn’t going fast enough. Maybe they are right to do so- I can’t say. It may have been that large of a crisis for people.
 
Last edited:

Booter

Sr. Member
Reaction score
1,001
Points
810
The logistics, leave classifications and all the other administriva I would leave to the brass hats. How would they get there? Drive? Aviation Division? Air Canada? Would it be disruptive back home and have a cost? Sure. I don't see this as a Nova Scotia contract problem; I see this as a RCMP problem. Effective leadership means rising to the occasion to protect your members. Sure, a plan should be in place, but I will forgive anybody for not having contingencies or op plans that could have matched this incident.

A month and a bit ago, South Simcoe Police Service (100 members, 86K population) lost two members. For three days preceding the funerals, the OPP covered all of their calls. At least one was a barricaded person/tactical call. They had one day to put this together. I don't know from how far afield the the OPP members came but I can guarantee you that most will have came from contract detachments - police services paid for by the municipalities. Who paid for this service? Haven't a clue.
While interesting, legitimately so- it’s an order of magnitude lower. I would be interested to see how that cost was recovered. I would like to look at that plan and how it was actioned- I appreciate that example. But without knowing how it worked- like did south simcoe pay an OT bill for these members on shoestring minimum? Then it a success of the community leaders opposed to the provincial leaders that would be the responsible ones if we used the example to our situation,

The problem with your post is that you get to have all the good intentions in the world and say what “should” happen. Those officers have to work in the structures that exist.

“You should do this!”

“Okay- tell the polticians to pay the bill and give me the authority”

We don’t even know if they tried to speak with the province about the money and issues surrounding wellness, all we know is that frustrated people texted each other,

You are correct it’s an RCMP problem. That financial stuff bleeds right down into the training system of new recruits and how seats are assigned. Money/cost first then operations.

You can observe that in the Surrey police VS RCMP battle.
 

lenaitch

Army.ca Veteran
Reaction score
1,669
Points
1,040
While interesting, legitimately so- it’s an order of magnitude lower. I would be interested to see how that cost was recovered. I would like to look at that plan and how it was actioned- I appreciate that example. But without knowing how it worked- like did south simcoe pay an OT bill for these members on shoestring minimum? Then it a success of the community leaders opposed to the provincial leaders that would be the responsible ones if we used the example to our situation,

The problem with your post is that you get to have all the good intentions in the world and say what “should” happen. Those officers have to work in the structures that exist.

“You should do this!”

“Okay- tell the polticians to pay the bill and give me the authority”

We don’t even know if they tried to speak with the province about the money and issues surrounding wellness, all we know is that frustrated people texted each other,

You are correct it’s an RCMP problem. That financial stuff bleeds right down into the training system of new recruits and how seats are assigned. Money/cost first then operations.

You can observe that in the Surrey police VS RCMP battle.
You're right, we don't know the financial details. The SSPS Police Services Board's webpage hasn't posted minutes since September and there was an agenda for a special meeting in November to approve BWC. I suspect, and this is only a guess from what I have seen in the past, is the OPP agreed to it first and will approach government later, without or without a tacit nod from somebody at the Ministry. Forgiveness vs. permission.

The type of arrangement is not unheard of, but is typically only part of the day of the funeral (correction: coverage was provided for two days, not three) and I don't recall it being for a Service this large. There are very few small departments left in Ontario. Obviously, if it between OPP detachments, the accounting and logistics are somewhat easier, but it remains that it is an unbudgeted expense.

If RCMP senior leadership lack the ability to make operational decisions, even really expensive ones, that are outside of line items, I see that as a problem.
 

Booter

Sr. Member
Reaction score
1,001
Points
810
If RCMP senior leadership lack the ability to make operational decisions, even really expensive ones, that are outside of line items, I see that as a problem.
This is true.

But I also know that a city of hundred thousand people can be backfilled by five officers on shift.

That’s not nearly the same thing.
 

lenaitch

Army.ca Veteran
Reaction score
1,669
Points
1,040
This is true.

But I also know that a city of hundred thousand people can be backfilled by five officers on shift.

That’s not nearly the same thing.
My point has always been illustrative rather than comparative. I'll take your word on the numbers - I've been out too long to argue them. No doubt it would be disruptive to backfill all the impacted members 24/7 for a couple of weeks. Rest days and perhaps annual leave messed up for sure. Maybe Fort Rose Marie in Ottawa and the divisional HQs get quieter for a few weeks. Wildly expensive. But if the 'corporate culture' and leadership is there, and that is what is necessary for the mental strength of the members and avoid longer term problems, they need to rise to the occasion. Flexibility and surge capacity are supposed to be a couple of the hallmarks of large deployed services; otherwise they are just a collection of smaller police departments in the same suit.
 

Eye In The Sky

Army.ca Legend
Reaction score
3,112
Points
1,160
Yes essentially they were being asked to be reassigned to admin duties for several/two weeks. Requires medical signing off.

It wasn’t a big ask. But we also don’t know what is happening away from WhatsApp. I find articles like these very suspicious.

I'm having a hard time 'seeing past' the comments in the WhatsApp message, regardless.
 
Top