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A400M Rollout

Keine probleme damit IronDuke57.

... The first six units to be used in the flight-test program are 12 tons heavier than planned, those sources say. A weight savings campaign has identified a reduction potential of 7 tons. Early production aircraft will only incorporate reductions of 5 tons at the most, leaving payload below the 30-ton mark.

Source as listed above

37 tonne as identified Air Force Technology (cited above)
-12 tons (or tonnes? unclear) as cited by Aviation Week

Equals payload or 25 tons (or tonnes unclear)

POTENTIAL weight savings of 7 tons (or tonnes) MAY bring the payload back up to 32 tons (or tonnes) but early model production aircraft MIGHT only see a weight savings of 5 tons (or tonnes) bringing the payload up to 30 tons (or tonnes).

Given that Rheinmetall is calling for a stripped down Puma weight of something like 28 to 31 tons or tonnes (depending on who is doing the writing) that doesn't seem to leave a whole lot of spare change EVEN IF THEY CAN REALISE the weight savings.

If they can't then I stand behind my sense that they will be trying to carry a 30 ton/ne piece of kit in a 25 ton/ne aircraft.

Wenn Sie wollen, mein Herr.  ;)
 
Ah now I see. Just an misinterpration. You posted "now claiming that the design payload was 30 tonnes" like someone would now say that it was always only designed for a 30t payload.

Regards,
ironduke57
 
This is starting to sound like a drawn out verrsion of the Antonov AN-70 story. Hopefully it will have a better ending.....
 
I dont think it will ever fly. The delays have killed the program and more buyers will be looking to buy C-130J's and or C-17's.
 
ironduke57 said:
Ah now I see. Just an misinterpration. You posted "now claiming that the design payload was 30 tonnes" like someone would now say that it was always only designed for a 30t payload.

Regards,
ironduke57

Entschuldigen Sie mir. Sie haben rechts.

I overstepped in my first post.  An overfast (uber schnell?) reading of the item thought that they HAD reduced the design weight to 30 tonnes.  My error on that point.  But, again, I still stand on point about 30 tonnes in a 25 tonne bag.

Cheers.
 
tomahawk6 said:
I dont think it will ever fly. The delays have killed the program and more buyers will be looking to buy C-130J's and or C-17's.

six months ago I would never have agreed with this statement, but now I think you could be right.  Airbus must be bleeding cash - the A380 is an economic disaster  - it will never be a profitable aircraft.  The break even point was over 500 and they have sold <200 aircraft and that was two years ago - the carrying charges on the project debt keep on accruing. The money needed to develop the A350 is huge and now the A400M is another cash sinkhole.

The company has to be hurting really bad, really big.  The various European governments have thrown Euros at them in the past but now that Europe is in a serious recession with many calls for bailouts and financial aid, this time Airbis might not be at the front of the handout line.

Going to be interesting to watch what happens.
 
If the Europeans want to prevent the Americans adopting a Buy American policy all they have to do is adopt a Buy American policy themselves and adjust the balance of trade that is a prime contributor to the current fiscal/financial/monetary crisis.

Buying C130s and C17s would be a good start.
 
Kirkhill said:
If the Europeans want to prevent the Americans adopting a Buy American policy all they have to do is adopt a Buy American policy themselves

They already do quite a bit of it. buying an airlifter isnt going to adjust the balance enoug to counter american protectionism.
 
CDN Aviator said:
They already do quite a bit of it. buying an airlifter isnt going to adjust the balance enoug to counter american protectionism.

Some Europeans do a lot of "Buying American".  Others not so much,  In either event, right now, it is all about signals which are being scrutinized for indications of intent.  I agree a few C17s will only contribute square up the balance of trade for a day or two but it would be significant signal if, for example, the French and Germans were to indicate that they were willing to trust Americans to do the right thing and NOT protect American workers directly by, in turn, NOT protecting their workers.  Just like us with the Navistar truck purchase.    We sell LAVs to them.  They sell C17s and Navistars to us. 
 
Kirkhill said:
I agree a few C17s will only contribute square up the balance of trade for a day or two 

Then done. NATO SAC ( mostly euro countries) bought 2 C-17s fresh from Boeing and the thrid from the USAF.

JSF.......more F-16s.......more F-16s.........
 
Given the size of the combined NATO forces and their self selected global responsibilities, they would need to buy far more C-17s than currently contemplated (if even our miniature defence establishment needs 6 of the monsters, NATO should be thinking of 20,30,40 or more....)

Getting in and out of places like Afghanistan or even Georgia will be a great deal simpler with that amount of airlift available.

Time to put that pipe down  ;)
 
Thucydides said:
Given the size of the combined NATO forces and their self selected global responsibilities, they would need to buy far more C-17s than currently contemplated (if even our miniature defence establishment needs 6 of the monsters, NATO should be thinking of 20,30,40 or more....)


Remember that not all NATO countries have signed on to SAC. The countries that have cannot afford to shell out for the entire alliance.
 
French fighting furiously for giant albatross--or should that be turkey?

French Aim To Push Compromise On A400M
http://www.aviationweek.com/aw/generic/story_generic.jsp?channel=aerospacedaily&id=news/A400M021209.xml&headline=French%20Aim%20To%20Push%20Compromise%20On%20A400M

France appears ready to pull out all the stops to convince partners that they should agree to renegotiate price, delivery terms and specifications for the A400M, and not stop the troubled multibillion euro initiative.

Meeting with reporters here Feb 10, the chairmen of the French Senate’s foreign affairs, defense and armed forces and finance committees presented a report confirming Airbus warnings last month that the airlifter program could be up to four years late. Combined with indications that the A400M might not meet certain design specifications, notably with respect to weight [emphasis added], the warnings are pushing some partners, in particular the U.K., to threaten to pull out.

Seven European countries have ordered a total of 180 A400Ms, led by Germany (60), France (50), Spain (27) and the U.K. (25).

Delivery of the digital engine control system (FADEC), recently programmed for July, is now expected around October. This means the A400M is unlikely to make its first flight until early 2010 – two years behind the original schedule. Initial deliveries are not expected until late 2012, and perhaps late 2013 – four years later than called for [emphasis added] – if the prime contractor, Airbus, decides to limit production in the first year to allow for maturing design.

Nevertheless, the chairmen said findings indicated that management reshuffles inside EADS/Airbus and within the propulsion team – with Rolls-Royce and Snecma now assuming a lead role – can get the program back on track and that technical hurdles are not insurmountable. EADS officials suggested additional benefit could be realized by separating development of the propulsion system into a separate contract, distinct from that of the aircraft system.

French press reports suggest fixing the program could raise its cost by 5 billion euros ($6.5 billion), the amount that customers have paid out to date for the 20 billion euro undertaking. EADS has provisioned 1.8 billion euros so far for schedule and cost overruns, with lesser amounts coming from other contractors.

But the lawmakers also suggested that abandoning the effort – Europe’s biggest cooperative military undertaking by far – would entail an economic, financial and political cost far outweighing the cost of setting it right. They said they had submitted their findings directly to French President Nicolas Sarkozy with the request that the matter be brought up at the highest political level as soon as European defense procurement agency Occar, which is managing the A400M, finishes its ongoing inquiry into program difficulties. This is expected within a few weeks.

Under the terms of the contract, the seven launch customers can pull out of the deal or seek to renegotiate its terms if delivery is delayed more than 14 months. This provision becomes effective on March 31 [emphasis added].

Committee member Jacques Gautier said France will be forced to resort to various stratagems to meet its own interim airlift needs until the A400M is ready. Among these are to prolong the life of some of its Transalls, where possible; pushing forward the acquisition of two A330s due to be purchased under a forthcoming tanker-transport buy; wet-leasing more An-124s; and acquiring a few Casa C212/235 light transports. Leasing a few Lockheed Martin C130Js or Boeing C-17s [Quelle humilitation! Latest on Boeing plans for C-17 here]
http://www.aviationweek.com/aw/generic/story.jsp?id=news/C17-021309.xml&headline=Boeing%20Turns%20to%20Cost%20Reduction%20on%20C-17%20Sales&channel=defense
is also “not excluded,” he says, “as long as it does not threaten the future of the A400M.”

Via Spotlight on Military News and International Affairs:
http://www.cfc.forces.gc.ca/257-Eng.html

Mark
Ottawa
 
All weep for the long suffering European taxpayers who will be forced to open their wallets, again, to pay for this monument to European aerospace vanity.

The A380 was the first financial boondoggle that EADS/Airbus inflicted on Europe but the A400M looks like it might overtake that fiasco. 

Thank goodness the Canadian government didn't give in to the political pressures orchestrated by EADS/Airbus and sign us up to purchase this aircraft.


 
EADS admits cancellations possible:

OCCAR 'unlikely' to use A400M termination clause: EADS
http://www.flightglobal.com/articles/2009/03/10/323581/occar-unlikely-to-use-a400m-termination-clause-eads.html

EADS has admitted that delays to the first flight of the Airbus Military A400M could lead to orders being cancelled next month, but considers a contract termination "unlikely".

In a statement issued ahead of its annual results briefing, EADS acknowledges that "as the A400M will not perform its first flight before the end of March 2009" the customer - OCCAR - has a contractual right to claim termination of the entire contract as of 1 April.

EADS says that termination may only be obtained with "a unanimous mandate of all the launch nations" represented by European procurement agency OCCAR. While EADS considers a termination "very unlikely", it admits that "each of the launch nations may claim cancellation of those individual aircraft which would be subtantially delayed".

Addressing an analyst conference today, EADS CEO Louis Gallois said that negotiations with A400M customers were ongoing and that there was “no sign” of contract termination being sought.

He noted that Germany, France and Spain had expressed a “wish to negotiate”, which he said was indicative of a desire to continue with the programme, while the UK “has not said the opposite”. Topics under negotiation include the time schedule for deliveries, delivery standards, the production ramp-up, delay penalties, allowances for inflation, and bridging solutions to meet capacity shortfalls.

Termination of the contract by OCCAR would trigger reimbursement of pre-delivery and other payments amounting to a total of approximately €5.7 billion ($7.3 billion).

Under a "new approach" EADS proposed to the launch nations in January, first delivery of the A400M would follow three years after its first flight, with series production resuming only once "adequate maturity" is reached, based on flight test results [emphasis added]. OCCAR has not yet responded to the proposal...

Mark
Ottawa
 
not sure but, if EADS were to be forced into reimbursing $7.3 Billion - would think that this would trigger the firm's bankruptcy - or certainly it's insolvency... and I don't think the Western European governments are prepared to go that route.
 
geo, they may just decide to stop sending money down the hole.

It wouldn't be the first defence project to be written off as a bad loss after the GNP of a small nation or two has been blown.
 
Agreed... I was just pointing out that it is extremely unlikely that they will be required to reimburse the 7.3B$
 
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