A Canadian Brown Water Navy [ Champagne Navy- Book]

[Ex-Dragoon]

Its been discussed before but what class would be ideal to meet our needs for the littoral enviroment. Personally I have always been a fan of the US Navy/US Coast Guard Cyclone class. An updated design would provide a lot of fire power in a small package. Navyshooter posted an interesting theory of mounting a 120mm automatic mortar system onboard the Halifax class frigate to provide some modicum of NGS. I am thinking an updated and upgraded Cyclone class could be possibly armed as well. Thoughts on the Cyclone or recommendations of another class?

 

[Ex-Dragoon]

http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/systems/ship/pc-1.htm

Tech data etc.

 

[Jaydub]

I like the Skjold Patrol Boat.  The Norwegian Navy is phasing them in to replace the Hauks.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Skjold_class_patrol_boat

They're small, fast, and Link compatible.  They also carry quite a bit of firepower of their own.

 

[SeaKingTacco]

And their role would be?

Not being sarcastic- just trying to follow your train of thought.

 

[Ex-Dragoon]

Inshore NGS, Coastal Escort, Surveillance, Picket, deployment and retrieval of special ops teams.

 

[STONEY]

In other words nothing that Canada would ever have a requirement for. Haven't you noticed but FPB's are disappearing from the worlds  fleets and are being replaced with larger more capable vessels. The Cyclone class was crap when they were first built and haven't gotten any better with age. The US tried to unload them but even the third world isn't keen on them. What we really need is 3 AAW/ command Frigates ,we don't have any brown water unless your expecting trouble in the pedicodiac river.

Cheers

 

[Ex-Dragoon]

In other words nothing that Canada would ever have a requirement for. Haven't you noticed but FPB's are disappearing from the worlds  fleets and are being replaced with larger more capable vessels. The Cyclone class was crap when they were first built and haven't gotten any better with age. The US tried to unload them but even the third world isn't keen on them. What we really need is 3 AAW/ command Frigates ,we don't have any brown water unless your expecting trouble in the pedicodiac river.

Cheers

Love to have your crystal ball...you will see the need of the 3 AAW/Command Frigates fulfilled by the SCSC. That is not the topic under discussion however, this is with regards to small surface combatants and their utility for the CF.

 

[Privateer]

I've often thought that something along the lines of a relatively small, very fast missile boat would be perfect for defence of the West Coast, certainly if any actual engagement was to take place in the coastal island / inlet areas.  Hide, pop out, shoot, run, hide...repeat.  I think we should have a class of such ships for "homeland defence", leaving the bigger (and more expensive) frigates, etc. for high seas or foreign deployment.

 

[Kirkhill]

The Norwegians, the Swedes, the Finns and the Danes seem to find sufficient utility in small boats that they all continue to invest money in their operation.  The Danes in particular have historical reasons to appreciate the utility of small boats capable of handling weapons in confined waters while operating against capital ships.

There is much of Canada where small, fast boats could be usefully employed.  Not for combatting the vessels of foreign states but for dealing with the freelancers of the world - people that can also afford to purchase some fairly sophisticated kit.  We don't currently have the problem but if we don't have the capability to work in those waters we may eventually need the capability.  Better to be the first boat in the water than the second trying to retake "ground".

In the mean time vessels that can keep up with the runners on the West Coast, or the Thousand Islands or the St. Clair River might be found to be useful.  Vessels that can operate amongst the ice in the North in the summertime - when the Inuit are operating in skiffs - might be found useful. 

Vessels that are small, handy and fast and shallow draft.  That can be purchased and operated in small flotillas.  That have the potential to be deployed in other transports - not self-deployed.  That have good suite of surveillance and nav gear. That are lightly armed but can be up-armed if the situation demands.  That are good utility platforms even when not armed.  Vessels that can operate under the same conditions as the Inkster, Nadon, Higgitt, Lindsay and Simmonds operate on the West Coast and off of Newfoundland.

This not a suggestion to take over the RCMP's duties. It is a suggestion to be able to supply more capable vessels to operate in the same waters as the RCMP and supply  back up at the same time.  At the same time the vessels would supply training facilities and could be found to be useful overseas. 

 

[quadrapiper]

Looking at the various posts... 'twould seem there's a wide range of operations being considered for these hypothetical brown-water combatants.

If we're looking at "the Russians are coming" scenarios - fighting well-equipped and modern units belonging to a larger, highly capable naval force - then there may be a call for fast, heavily-armed miniature warships capable of taking on a guerrilla sort of role.

If we're looking at a sturdy, fast vessel with enough firepower and sensors to handle criminal and terrorist incursions - then you hardly need the most modern thing out there. [hyperbole]A WWII MGB with better sensors, really...[/hyperbole]

Not being a naval strategist I have no idea which of these is most needed... but if it's the latter, let's not spend extra resources on the former.

 

[jollyjacktar]

I used to be on another discussion forum on HT when it was running.  One of the members was a retired Navy CO and had comments on this subject.  There was a time in the late 80's early 90's when decsisions were being made on the future of the Gate ships and what to replace them with.  Serious investigation was made into adopting a small fleet of MTB MGB type ships as the future for the NavRes.  There was also the camp that believed the future needed what the present MCDVs fufull now.  It was equally split I gather amongst the big wheels on who sat on which side of the fence.  MCDVs won out as they were seen as the more adaptable/useful platforms.  But I guess it came very very close to going the other way.

Maybe it may be revisited some day in the future.  There are shipyards out there that do produce MTB class vessels, albeit in the States.  No reason why it could not be done here too if the decision was made.

 

[Colin Parkinson]

Canada has a large and often exposed coastline with safe harbours a fair distance apart. The MCDV were a step in the right direction, blessed are those who ensured they were armed, even if not well. The problem is that high speed smaller vessels have to give up endurance, strenght or weight carrying capcity to achieve the higher speeds. Displacement hulls limit speeds, but can give good seakeeping and endurance features. A somewhat longer version of the MCDV would offer a slighty faster vessel with longer endurance. A better weapon suite is required, along with some self defence suite. These vessels can do much of the coastal stuff and much less expense in fuel and manpower than the larger vessels.

There is room for a smaller faster patrol vessel. A couple of these could be based up North in the west and East manned by reservists based up there, the vessels hauled out every winter such as ATL did. The West coast and the Lakes could also use a couple of fast patrol vessel as there is more protected water and more ports. I not sure how they would do on the East coast though.

 

[Ex-Dragoon]

I think going the way of the new British River class OPVs would satify patrol requirements of our EEZ.

 

[Shad4now]

I thought the navy was planning to use the new ORCAs as inshore patrol boats. They are fast (faster than the MCDVs anyways) and small enough to get into most parts of the coast.  Last I heard they are planning on mounting a 50 cal on the front of them. 

 

[IN HOC SIGNO]

I thought the navy was planning to use the new ORCAs as inshore patrol boats. They are fast (faster than the MCDVs anyways) and small enough to get into most parts of the coast.  Last I heard they are planning on mounting a 50 cal on the front of them. 

They were built to replace the training vessals...YFPs and YAGs.

 

[Shad4now]

from cdnmilitary.ca
"Training duties is not the only mission with which the ORCA class will be tasked. The vessels will have a higher speed than the KINGSTON class and a sufficient range to allow them to be used on coastal patrol duties when not tasked with training the Navy’s next generation of officers. The vessels will also have limited search and rescue capabilities."

full article at:http://www.cdnmilitary.ca/?p=25

 

[Ex-Dragoon]

I dare say 90% of the ORCAs duties will entail training and if needed will be involved in patrol duties.

 

[IN HOC SIGNO]

from cdnmilitary.ca
"Training duties is not the only mission with which the ORCA class will be tasked. The vessels will have a higher speed than the KINGSTON class and a sufficient range to allow them to be used on coastal patrol duties when not tasked with training the Navy’s next generation of officers. The vessels will also have limited search and rescue capabilities."

full article at:http://www.cdnmilitary.ca/?p=25

All of our vessels have a SAR capability....if you're out on the water and someone is in trouble you help them. we pulled a guy off the rocks when we were in MARS 3 near active pass when I was on the Minesweepers. This vessels were built to train people.

 

[HalfmyLife]

Wait a minute, I don't believe for a minute that the ORCA is only a Training Vsl, While yes that is it's Primary duty. I believe that the ORCA will in the Future serve other roles for the Navy. Such as Patrolling the Fraser River during the Olympic maybe? The Navy ordered more then what was required for training purposes eight in total and If CASR is to be believed, the secondary role for them was inshore patrol.

 

[aesop081]

and If CASR is to be believed,

Second funniest thing i have heard all day !!