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2023 UCP Alberta election

Are BC, Saskatchewan, and Manitoba now Central and Eastern Canada?

I would expect Sask and Man to follow suite with Alb. BC is a crap shoot.

Why would Alberta not be able to leave with their already made contributions ? A return of contributions, if you will.
 
I would expect Sask and Man to follow suite with Alb. BC is a crap shoot.
And when Ontario does it too (and faster- super majority) and there's not enough money to go around?
We throw out the formula born of that interpretation as non-viable and use one more grounded in common sense.
 
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If Alberta goes through with this there should be an option to cash out and not participate in the program. Let people keep the money and invest it on their own.

CPP withdrawl and perhaps a set-up of a provincial policing force. Seems like Alberta is getting sick of confederation and having to carry the rest of the country (Quebec and Martimes particularly).
 
Easy. We'll just go increase transfer payments to bail it out
 
If Alberta goes through with this there should be an option to cash out and not participate in the program. Let people keep the money and invest it on their own.

CPP withdrawl and perhaps a set-up of a provincial policing force. Seems like Alberta is getting sick of confederation and having to carry the rest of the country (Quebec and Martimes particularly).
Until they blow it all because they're less-than-good investors, then they become either a burden on the state or we have a remake of the 1930s.

The CPP, large private and public pension plans are financially successful because they have large pools of money, are run by professionals and are generally quite conservative in their strategies. They don't have to chase the latest 'hot' thing.
 
They don't have to chase the latest 'hot' thing.

Sounds like an individual problem. Some will manage their money wisely and others might blow it all in casinos. Freedom of choice.

If He Dies Ivan Drago GIF
 
Sounds like an individual problem. Some will manage their money wisely and others might blow it all in casinos. Freedom of choice.

If He Dies Ivan Drago GIF

I don't follow Alberta politics, because I am not eligible to vote in their elections.
Although my mother and sister live in their beautiful province.

I'm no pension expert, but, what if the pensioner does not die, and lives to 100?

If they blow their pension at the casino, do they go on taxpayer funded welfare?
 
Not sure why people are asking about an opt-out for a future APP. 🤷🏻‍♂️ Can’t opt-out of either CPP nor QPP, so there should be no assumption that it’s suddenly going to be available to working Albertans.
 
Alberta native at The Line, Jen Gerson isn’t impressed. On the podcast, she called it “laughable” and “embarrassing”.


Lastly, we end our dispatch with a look at the latest weirdness in Alberta. This week, the government released its long awaited report examining the possibility of an Alberta Pension Plan (APP). And while we at The Lineadmit we weren’t sure quite what to expect, we have to admit that we definitely didn’t imagine this report would inspire us to start laughing. Laughing so hard that our sides hurt —because, good God, surely nobody is taking this thing seriously, are they?

Let’s step back a moment. The APP traces its origins all the way back to the Firewall letter of 2001 — the manifesto that sought to use Quebec as a model to create a more independent Alberta within Confederation. Given the province’s comparative wealth and youth, it is not outlandish to argue that Alberta gets short shrift in a national pension program, and might very well be better off with a parallel provincial program, akin to Quebec’s. Previous studies of the issue have questioned some of these assumptions: during Ralph Klein’s era, for example, the concept of a pension plan was eventually rubbished when somebody did the math on risks and administration costs. Plus, the CPP is actually one of the few Canadian institutions that is truckin’ along — it is well run and secures good returns on investment.

An APP would not only have a smaller pool of capital to work with, it would wind up duplicating administrative and investment costs. Plus, well, who would run it? Alberta’s previous experiments with investment arms (see: AIMCO) have not covered themselves with glory, historically. And there is always the risk that in a highly oligarchic one-party province, the temptation to channel pension funds to politically well-connected people and popular causes would be ever present. Imagine, if you will, an Alberta government that is willing to channel that cash to propping up oil-sands companies that find themselves bereft of capital from global financial markets that are taking environmental standards more seriously. This is the very opposite of what our financial advisers would call a “diversified investment portfolio.”

And then we get into the existential questions: what is the purpose of an APP? To provide Albertans with healthy retirement benefits? To triple down on oil and gas investment? Or is the purpose of this gambit punitive — an attempt to flex some financial muscle and punish the rest of Canada for equalization and pipelines and hurting Albertans’ feelings more generally?

These three goals are not mutually compatible.

So let’s just say that we had some concerns, but we were open to the idea of an APP. That is, until we saw this week’s report. Alberta and its government are very convinced that should it withdraw from the CPP, that they are entitled to roughly $334 billion of the CPP’s assets, as per the withdrawal method written into legislation. For those keeping track at home, that would account for, uh, 53 per cent of the CPP’s total. Alberta is straight-faced claiming that it — a province that comprises a bit over 10 per cent of the Canadian population, and a slightly larger share of the GNP — is entitled to more than half the country’s pension fund assets.

And it’s hard to know where to go from there.

Look, we could point out the many ways in which the government’s paid report-hacks have used motivated economic and legal reasoning to come to these figures. We could do that. But, let’s be honest, that’s not what you come to The Line for. You don’t come to us for detailed economic and legal analysis, you come to us to hear that this report is juvenile fart huffing, and we’re not going to disappoint you.
The fantasy that Alberta is going to get more than half of the assets in the CPP is a political non starter. It’s utterly farcical. It’s so bonkers that it’s hard to read with a straight face, much less analyze as a serious government proposal. It’s so outlandish that the entire APP report falls flat on its face at the first hurdle.

Alberta is not the only interested party that has access to lawyers and economists. The CPP and the federal government are going to do their own analysis of the legislation and the math, and the number they’re going to come to is not going to be anywhere close to $334 billion. Given the analyses done by both the CPP and economist Trevor Tombe to date, the actual number is probably closer to between $100 and $130 billion. Who are the courts going to side with, should it come to a legal challenge? If the government wants to convince Albertans of the necessity of an APP, it needs to do so with a mathematical argument that isn’t rooted in ku-ku-cachoo ville. Otherwise, the consultations that the province plans to carry out about the proposal are starting from a false premise; namely, that we can use an APP/highway robbery to stealth away some disproportionate share of national assets and invest that booty, keeping premiums low. But, like, it’s tit-for-tat for all those years of equalization, we guess. Yahoo, baby!
The fact that neither the government, the report-writers, nor the people who supported it publicly see this is embarrassing. They should all feel bad about themselves on their insides.
It’s at this point, we have to note that the hell-bent need to make the APP a thing is often characterized as an ideological commitment. We beg to differ. It’s not ideological. It’s emotional.

It’s “Screw you, Canada!” and “We’ll get ours!” and “Why do you treat us so badly?” and “Why can’t you see how important we are?” all wrapped up in a series of temper tantrums discussed as policy as the rest of the country looks on confused, and baffled. “What do these people think they are, exactly? And why are they so upset?” (This is, to be clear, when they notice Alberta at all: one Line editor had to gently tell the other one recently that when he gets out of bed in the morning, his first thoughts, contrary to what many seem to assume, isn’t how to grind Alberta under heel.)

We’d like to imagine that demanding half the country’s pension assets was some kind of 4D chess move, an attempt to channel separatist sentiment, or to generate political currency for either domestic or interprovincial gain, but honestly, we don’t even see that much thought in it. It’s lashing out. That’s it. And that’s not the impulse in which we would wish to invest our pension savings.
 
…although on the APP issue, if an end-state transfer was the 100-130B (20-25%, not 54%) that economist Trevor Tombes assessed would result would result in an indefinitely sustainable plan with a sustained contribution rate lower than CPP, it’s not unreasonable. The Alberta report most likely was laying down the upper bound of a potential negotiation process. I don’t think anyone of sound economically-informed mind believes Alberta would get 54% of the CPP’s assets, but it does cause people to look at the formula in the CPP Act itself that numerically indicates such a potential figure. Heck, Ontario could look to secede and claim 130% using the formula. If Alberta goes further, then there will most certainly be discussion and supposition as to what a realistic severance transfer would look like, probably some balance between AB:RoC population (4.5M:26.5M) or the working population (don’t have those numbers at hand), and the ratio of existing AB workers contributions to CPP to the contributions of RoC workers. In any case, probably somewhere in the 20% region that Tombes suggests. We shall see if the issue continues to foment, but off-hand insulting Alberta for albeit a bit of a clumsy opening gambit, is not beneficial to addressing an issue borne of a sense that the federal government couldn’t give a rats ass about a not insignificant region of the country.
 
The more-than-half estimate is a convenient strawman, which has the novelty of being one that the gambit's opponents didn't have to create. Sound and fury objecting to it is basically time and effort wasted.

The underlying issue worth serious consideration and which will have to be attacked directly is what happens if a province with a generally younger population with higher employment rates withdraws from CPP, takes a proportionate share of assets with it, and leaves the remaining CPP population base older and less employed. I suppose it must worry "serious people" that an APP might be viable with lower contribution rates and might necessitate changes to CPP contributions/benefits, but this is an excellent time for them to provide clarity rather than to waste paragraphs and pages arguing against the most extreme interpretation.
 
…although on the APP issue, if an end-state transfer was the 100-130B (20-25%, not 54%) that economist Trevor Tombes assessed would result would result in an indefinitely sustainable plan with a sustained contribution rate lower than CPP, it’s not unreasonable. The Alberta report most likely was laying down the upper bound of a potential negotiation process. I don’t think anyone of sound economically-informed mind believes Alberta would get 54% of the CPP’s assets, but it does cause people to look at the formula in the CPP Act itself that numerically indicates such a potential figure. Heck, Ontario could look to secede and claim 130% using the formula. If Alberta goes further, then there will most certainly be discussion and supposition as to what a realistic severance transfer would look like, probably some balance between AB:RoC population (4.5M:26.5M) or the working population (don’t have those numbers at hand), and the ratio of existing AB workers contributions to CPP to the contributions of RoC workers. In any case, probably somewhere in the 20% region that Tombes suggests. We shall see if the issue continues to foment, but off-hand insulting Alberta for albeit a bit of a clumsy opening gambit, is not beneficial to addressing an issue borne of a sense that the federal government couldn’t give a rats ass about a not insignificant region of the country.


if an end-state transfer was the 100-130B (20-25%, not 54%) that economist Trevor Tombes assessed

 
Does anyone know what the current mood is for this in Alberta? Polls a few months ago weren’t exactly positive.
 
Does anyone know what the current mood is for this in Alberta? Polls a few months ago weren’t exactly positive.

I have to imagine anything that can be perceived as turning the screw on Eastern Canada will be largely seen in a positive light by many in Alberta...

But I don't have any data, just a suspicion.
 
I have to imagine anything that can be perceived as turning the screw on Eastern Canada will be largely seen in a positive light by many in Alberta...

But I don't have any data, just a suspicion.
Yeah, just wondering if there was more recent data. In May it was only at 21% support.
 
Does anyone know what the current mood is for this in Alberta? Polls a few months ago weren’t exactly positive.
And that's what makes me come back to how crazy publishing that number was. Sure. Everyone with basic understanding is going to dismiss it - (as I pointed out)- seems we're all on board with that now.
But... it's still the Premier's number, the number underpinning the plan that is going to be the center piece of the public engagement process. How do you sell people (of whom the majority are already against) on the wisdom of such a major endeavor, and that you should be taken seriously as a steward for such an important function, when your first step is do pin your name to a fairy tale?
 
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