2023 CAF Recruiting Ad

[Quirky]

but I don't think the Cpl at 4XX Sqn fixing an aircraft is getting bombarded daily by this stuff more so than any other Fed Gov worker.

Last year (2022) we had 5 mandatory DLN courses that we HAD to complete which essentially shut down ops for two days because we didn't have enough computers. I refused to keep people past their actual working day to click through a useless indigenous awareness slide shit show. The CoC couldn't fathom why we couldn't keep planes flying AND do these pointless woke courses.

 

[Humphrey Bogart]

But the CAF (and all militaries) are socio-political constructs. A military cannot be completely detached from the political system it is serving...the whole "war is politics by other means" bit.

Sure, some areas get more of the socio-political stuff focused on them (CPCC being an obvious example) but I don't think the Cpl at 4XX Sqn fixing an aircraft is getting bombarded daily by this stuff more so than any other Fed Gov worker.

Indeed, which is why the bandaids applied by the current crop running the place are not going to deliver a result. CPCC is a good example of everything that is wrong with the CAF. We have a culture dept where I work, it's called Human Resources . I think some people have mentioned the CAF should probably focus on professionalizing it's HR practices. In violent agreement with those people.

I've accepted the reality that the CAF isn't interested in winning atm and until that changes, it will continue to flounder.

There are a few reasons to elect serve in the Regular Forces still: good pension, job security, pay to actual workload like most Government gigs is extremely favorable. In other words, it's a good option if you are struggling to find something else and need some stability.

Other than that.... drawing blanks.

I briefly considered joining the Reserves but think that it would be a colossal waste of time and would be a potential hinderance to my career aspirations considering how dysfunctional the Reserves is.

 

[Humphrey Bogart]

Last year (2022) we had 5 mandatory DLN courses that we HAD to complete which essentially shut down ops for two days because we didn't have enough computers. I refused to keep people past their actual working day to click through a useless indigenous awareness slide shit show. The CoC couldn't fathom why we couldn't keep planes flying AND do these pointless woke courses.

I had one course I had to take, it is delivered as part of onboarding for the Company I work for.

You get it issued to you the first day you hire on. It's a few hours long and is a bunch of interactive scenarios that you have to work through. Everything is monitored including if you simply click through the slides and there is a test at the end that you have to pass.

The Company then gives you an additional days pay for successfully completing all the training by a certain time so there is incentive to do it right away.

That's the extent of it though.

 

[dimsum]

There are a few reasons to elect serve in the Regular Forces still: good pension, job security, pay to actual workload like most Government gigs is extremely favorable. In other words, it's a good option if you are struggling to find something else and need some stability.

Other than that.... drawing blanks.

For the majority of trades, I would agree.

However, and I totally get that being aircrew is a pretty small percentage of CAF members writ large, unless Air Canada is going to start doing 60s and 2s, or do nap-of-the-earth flying (which would be pretty awesome, not gonna lie), "doing cool flying" is something that is still pretty limited to the military.

 

[daftandbarmy]

I briefly considered joining the Reserves but think that it would be a colossal waste of time and would be a potential hinderance to my career aspirations considering how dysfunctional the Reserves is.

Now reflecting on my life choices

 

[mariomike]

Last year (2022) we had 5 mandatory DLN courses that we HAD to complete which essentially shut down ops for two days because we didn't have enough computers. I refused to keep people past their actual working day to click through a useless indigenous awareness slide shit show. The CoC couldn't fathom why we couldn't keep planes flying AND do these pointless woke courses.

I don't think it was pointless, but we got most of the woke aka guidance stuff in high school. I think guidance films were less complicated back then.

After that, in the real world, they didn't try to change your opinions.

But, if you treated anyone with disrespect, "We will change your employment."

Now reflecting on my life choices

As I am sure you, and others know, D & B, Reserves can be a scheduling challenge for shift workers, and people on-call / spare-board.

Great for students, and folks with 9-5 Monday - Friday type schedules.

 

[Humphrey Bogart]

For the majority of trades, I would agree.

However, and I totally get that being aircrew is a pretty small percentage of CAF members writ large, unless Air Canada is going to start doing 60s and 2s, or do nap-of-the-earth flying (which would be pretty awesome, not gonna lie), "doing cool flying" is something that is still pretty limited to the military.

So now apply that same idea to trades like the Infantry, Armoured Corps, Artillery, etc and you will start to understand the issues....

We have an Armoured Corps that doesn't even have functioning Tanks and all it's members are being told they are party to a culture of toxic masculinity.

"I don't do a whole lot of actual Flying Soldiering and spend most of my days listening to how the culture here is terrible and how I am part of a larger problem"

nah I'm good.

 

[Quirky]

But, if you treated anyone with disrespect, "We will change your employment."

That statement can't be further from what's actually happening. There is still zero accountability and punishment within the CAF, our so-called disciplinary hearings are nothing more than kangaroo courts. People who wouldn't last a week in Walmart or McDonalds are given small fines and reprimands for harassment, these are senior NCMs and Officers. The CAF does everything in their power not to fire people when draining the swamp is exactly what's needed.

 

[rmc_wannabe]

My main issue is that all of the solutions we have seen in Culture Change; recruiting, training, performance review, professional development, dress regs, etc all take the Ottawa centric Public Service model of "problem solving."

I had a WO one call it the 3M approach:

-Make a committee
-Make the problem a Whole Department problem to avoid singling anyone out
-Mandate training and gather metrics.

The CAF is not the PS of Canada. The problem set itself and culture change you want are unique from and will not result from the same kinds of solutions you'd see at CRA or Fisheries.

DLN courses aren't a panacea, nor are opening the dress regs to a point they are more liberal than McDonalds. These work for OGDs, not us. Most of the problems within the CAF are Leadership issues. They need leaders to demonstrate actual leadership and deal with them problems in their wheelhouse as they manifest.

Instead, we get the same ZERO TOLERANCE, mandated, all will comply, etc. messaging within the "Defence Team"...

 

[Humphrey Bogart]

My main issue is that all of the solutions we have seen in Culture Change; recruiting, training, performance review, professional development, dress regs, etc all take the Ottawa centric Public Service model of "problem solving."

I had a WO one call it the 3M approach:

-Make a committee
-Make the problem a Whole Department problem to avoid singling anyone out
-Mandate training and gather metrics.

The CAF is not the PS of Canada. The problem set itself and culture change you want are unique from and will not result from the same kinds of solutions you'd see at CRA or Fisheries.

DLN courses aren't a panacea, nor are opening the dress regs to a point they are more liberal than McDonalds. These work for OGDs, not us. Most of the problems within the CAF are Leadership issues. They need leaders to demonstrate actual leadership and deal with them problems in their wheelhouse as they manifest.

Instead, we get the same ZERO TOLERANCE, mandated, all will comply, etc. messaging within the "Defence Team"...

Dude,

I wish we still had Milpoints because this would get top marks.

I don't think any sane person would say or think that we shouldn't treat people well or with respect.

At the same time, the Military has its own culture and its own traditions and I feel like you hit the nail on the head when you said our solutions all seem to be "Ottawa Centric".

I don't even know how to define the CAFs issues, just that there is a stench in the entire organization. The worst part about the response is that I don't even think the leadership believes the messages they are delivering and if they do they certainly don't show it.

 

[rmc_wannabe]

The worst part is I don't even know how to define the CAFs issues, just that there is a stench in the entire organization. The worst part about the response is that I don't even think the leadership believes the messages they are delivering and if they do they certainly don't show it.

The issue, as I alluded to in my original post, is that we lack leadership. True leadership.

Instead we see management. I would say since about 1997 the CAF went full hog into the corporate, MBA style of management due to the leadership failures found in the Somalia Report. The problem now has become that the pendulum swung pretty hard the other way; to the point that we aren't actually leading folks, we manage instead.

We manage workflows, CUBs, Teams meetings, committees, synergy, outputs, KPIs, ad nauseum... and manage people in similar fashion. It's with that mentality that we go into dealing with problem behaviours and cultures; we manage the issue, create metrics, have deadlines, have policies drafted, DLN courses, all because leaders are too gutless to do what needs to be done IRT poor performance, be it disciplinary issues or toxicity.

If the CDS said "cool... this was an incident that occurred under your watch... you have 20 minutes to explain what you did to nip this in the bud before you're losing command...." to more of his senior officers, I imagine things would not have gotten to this point. That is leadership. That is accountability. What's worse, is previous CDS' decision to instead "manage" the incident by deflecting, minimizing, and hiding problem leaders who should have been keelhauled publicly.

Where we have failed is that we tried to apply a management culture to an organization that demands the highest levels of leadership and accountability. If you're more concerned with CYA versus doing the ethically and morally right thing, clothing stores is short on CADPAT Trousers, 7032... turn'em in.

 

[daftandbarmy]

My main issue is that all of the solutions we have seen in Culture Change; recruiting, training, performance review, professional development, dress regs, etc all take the Ottawa centric Public Service model of "problem solving."

I had a WO one call it the 3M approach:

-Make a committee
-Make the problem a Whole Department problem to avoid singling anyone out
-Mandate training and gather metrics.

The CAF is not the PS of Canada. The problem set itself and culture change you want are unique from and will not result from the same kinds of solutions you'd see at CRA or Fisheries.

DLN courses aren't a panacea, nor are opening the dress regs to a point they are more liberal than McDonalds. These work for OGDs, not us. Most of the problems within the CAF are Leadership issues. They need leaders to demonstrate actual leadership and deal with them problems in their wheelhouse as they manifest.

Instead, we get the same ZERO TOLERANCE, mandated, all will comply, etc. messaging within the "Defence Team"...

I recall being a Junior Officer in a battalion that had returned from Germany on a Berlin tour, which was an infamously indolent posting replete with many opportunities to develop raging alcohol and tobacco habits. I joined the unit after it had returned to the UK.

If there were such a term as 'Culture Shift' at the time, we certainly experienced it.

The new CO and RSM, both very professional, experienced, battle tested/ decorated and truly fierce soldiers, drove us like rented mules.

The regimental nick was full most of the time, as I discovered when visiting the (terrified of the Provost Staff) prisoners.

Training was 'from the ground up' relentless including battle PT for everyone on a daily basis, and a 10 miler per week carrying 60lb loads and platoon weapons through the local mountains. Fall out of that and you're on remedial PTI, in you scarce spare time, with the unit PTI staff.

We spent alot of field time on battle drills, ranges, and all arms type cooperation training. Drill, dress and deportment standards were painstakingly enforced with extras being freely awarded to any Officer, NCO or soldier who slacked off. Everyone cut about purposefully, arms shoulder high, paying compliments etc as per the usual custom.

Being paratroopers, the dreaded balloon appeared on a regular basis and we reconnected with the basics of effective and safe jumping, leading to a series of airborne exercises under truly daunting conditions.

The weak or wavering were given the chance to get their act together and, if they failed, were kicked out. Every day on parade there were a couple of faces missing, and the message was hoisted in.

Not all was doom and gloom, of course, and there were various sports day type events, unit and inter-service competitions, and adventure training activities, along with a healthy Mess social life.

By the end of about 6 months we were a finely tuned machine. At the time I recall it felt like hell on earth, of course. But the harsh but fair approach accomplished a 180 degree culture change which, I believe, successfully set the stage for subsequent battalion successes in Northern Ireland, as well as a 5 year long stint as the Army's AMF (L) battalion in Norway etc.

Maybe the CAF could use a bit of that 'traditional' culture shift magic.

 

[QV]

I recall being a Junior Officer in a battalion that had returned from Germany on a Berlin tour, which was an infamously indolent posting replete with many opportunities to develop raging alcohol and tobacco habits. I joined the unit after it had returned to the UK.

If there were such a term as 'Culture Shift' at the time, we certainly experienced it.

The new CO and RSM, both very professional, experienced, battle tested/ decorated and truly fierce soldiers, drove us like rented mules.

The regimental nick was full most of the time, as I discovered when visiting the (terrified of the Provost Staff) prisoners.

Training was 'from the ground up' relentless including battle PT for everyone on a daily basis, and a 10 miler per week carrying 60lb loads and platoon weapons through the local mountains. Fall out of that and you're on remedial PTI, in you scarce spare time, with the unit PTI staff.

We spent alot of field time on battle drills, ranges, and all arms type cooperation training. Drill, dress and deportment standards were painstakingly enforced with extras being freely awarded to any Officer, NCO or soldier who slacked off. Everyone cut about purposefully, arms shoulder high, paying compliments etc as per the usual custom.

Being paratroopers, the dreaded balloon appeared on a regular basis and we reconnected with the basics of effective and safe jumping, leading to a series of airborne exercises under truly daunting conditions.

The weak or wavering were given the chance to get their act together and, if they failed, were kicked out. Every day on parade there were a couple of faces missing, and the message was hoisted in.

Not all was doom and gloom, of course, and there were various sports day type events, unit and inter-service competitions, and adventure training activities, along with a healthy Mess social life.

By the end of about 6 months we were a finely tuned machine. At the time I recall it felt like hell on earth, of course. But the harsh but fair approach accomplished a 180 degree culture change which, I believe, successfully set the stage for subsequent battalion successes in Northern Ireland, as well as a 5 year long stint as the Army's AMF (L) battalion in Norway etc.

Maybe the CAF could use a bit of that 'traditional' culture shift magic.

Won’t happen. The CAF is now far too soft and accommodating. Just look at the reaction here when I mentioned BMQ getting “beasted” in another thread.

 

[btrudy]

Last year (2022) we had 5 mandatory DLN courses that we HAD to complete which essentially shut down ops for two days because we didn't have enough computers. I refused to keep people past their actual working day to click through a useless indigenous awareness slide shit show. The CoC couldn't fathom why we couldn't keep planes flying AND do these pointless woke courses.

Might I humbly suggest that when a requirement for mandatory training is promulgated months in advance, you needing to shut down ops for two days because you presumably waited til two days before the training was due isn't actually the "woke courses" fault?

Plan better next time.

Indeed, which is why the bandaids applied by the current crop running the place are not going to deliver a result. CPCC is a good example of everything that is wrong with the CAF. We have a culture dept where I work, it's called Human Resources . I think some people have mentioned the CAF should probably focus on professionalizing it's HR practices. In violent agreement with those people.

I've accepted the reality that the CAF isn't interested in winning atm and until that changes, it will continue to flounder.

Strong disagree with the "not interested in winning" thing. Currently the #1 thing that is threatening our operational capacity, in both the short through the long term is our ability to attract and retain personnel. There is a reason that reconstitution is our #1 focus, and there's a reason that we're doing our best to adapt the forces into something that will be attractive to a wider swath of the Canadian population: because the old idea of relying upon a single shrinking demographic group isn't bloody working.

CPCC is everything that's right with the CAF, because it's the force that's driving us away from the traditions and practices which drive good people out and keep toxic people in.

 

[Furniture]

I recall being a Junior Officer in a battalion that had returned from Germany on a Berlin tour, which was an infamously indolent posting replete with many opportunities to develop raging alcohol and tobacco habits. I joined the unit after it had returned to the UK.

If there were such a term as 'Culture Shift' at the time, we certainly experienced it.

The new CO and RSM, both very professional, experienced, battle tested/ decorated and truly fierce soldiers, drove us like rented mules.

The regimental nick was full most of the time, as I discovered when visiting the (terrified of the Provost Staff) prisoners.

Training was 'from the ground up' relentless including battle PT for everyone on a daily basis, and a 10 miler per week carrying 60lb loads and platoon weapons through the local mountains. Fall out of that and you're on remedial PTI, in you scarce spare time, with the unit PTI staff.

We spent alot of field time on battle drills, ranges, and all arms type cooperation training. Drill, dress and deportment standards were painstakingly enforced with extras being freely awarded to any Officer, NCO or soldier who slacked off. Everyone cut about purposefully, arms shoulder high, paying compliments etc as per the usual custom.

Being paratroopers, the dreaded balloon appeared on a regular basis and we reconnected with the basics of effective and safe jumping, leading to a series of airborne exercises under truly daunting conditions.

The weak or wavering were given the chance to get their act together and, if they failed, were kicked out. Every day on parade there were a couple of faces missing, and the message was hoisted in.

Not all was doom and gloom, of course, and there were various sports day type events, unit and inter-service competitions, and adventure training activities, along with a healthy Mess social life.

By the end of about 6 months we were a finely tuned machine. At the time I recall it felt like hell on earth, of course. But the harsh but fair approach accomplished a 180 degree culture change which, I believe, successfully set the stage for subsequent battalion successes in Northern Ireland, as well as a 5 year long stint as the Army's AMF (L) battalion in Norway etc.

Maybe the CAF could use a bit of that 'traditional' culture shift magic.

What timeframe did this occur?

What were the social and economic conditions in the UK at the time this occurred?

I'm not arguing that a similar approach couldn't work today in the combat arms, but I doubt we'd fix our existing HRA/FSA problem by "beasting" the BOR with battle PT. The same applies for the other support trades, that seem to be the hardest trades to recruit and retain people in.

This goes back to my earlier point, not all of the CAF is there to hump rucks, and shoot people. What works to attract people to those jobs isn't what will attract people to join to fix things, or people. It won't attract people to join to do finance, weather forecasting, imagery analysis, etc., either.

 

[Humphrey Bogart]

Strong disagree with the "not interested in winning" thing. Currently the #1 thing that is threatening our operational capacity, in both the short through the long term is our ability to attract and retain personnel. There is a reason that reconstitution is our #1 focus, and there's a reason that we're doing our best to adapt the forces into something that will be attractive to a wider swath of the Canadian population: because the old idea of relying upon a single shrinking demographic group isn't bloody working.

CPCC is everything that's right with the CAF, because it's the force that's driving us away from the traditions and practices which drive good people out and keep toxic people in.

I'm fully capable of reading brochures, thank you though!

I am willing to bet I will be returning to this thread in 10 years with nothing being solved and the discussion still ongoing.

We'll probably have stood up a Committee to study why the CPCC didn't work

 

[ArmyRick]

I'm fully capable of reading brochures, thank you though!

I am willing to bet I will be returning to this thread in 10 years with nothing being solved and the discussion still ongoing.

We'll probably have stood up a Committee to study why the CPCC didn't work

Sorry for my ignorance, what is CPCC?

 

[Humphrey Bogart]

Sorry for my ignorance, what is CPCC?

Chief Professional Conduct & Culture

Have a read @ArmyRick

Chief Professional Conduct and Culture - Canada.ca

The Chief Professional Conduct and Culture will lead a fundamental transformation in the way systemic misconduct is understood and addressed in the Department of National Defence (DND) and the Canadian Armed Forces (CAF).

www.canada.ca

They are the people that are supposedly going to change the CAF.

 

[Navy_Pete]

Chief Professional Conduct & Culture

Have a read @ArmyRick

Chief Professional Conduct and Culture - Canada.ca

The Chief Professional Conduct and Culture will lead a fundamental transformation in the way systemic misconduct is understood and addressed in the Department of National Defence (DND) and the Canadian Armed Forces (CAF).

www.canada.ca

They are the people that are supposedly going to change the CAF.

Not to be confused with the 3 or 4 other 'transformations' that were also supposed to change the CAF!

I think there is room for being effective in combat, while not sexually assaulting your peers, but the RCN's top priority seems to be wifi and gyms, so don't have much confidence it even has any idea what combat effectiveness means, and QoL shouldn't top basic safety.

 

[Eye In The Sky]

Might I humbly suggest that when a requirement for mandatory training is promulgated months in advance, you needing to shut down ops for two days because you presumably waited til two days before the training was due isn't actually the "woke courses" fault?

Plan better next time

Thanks for demonstrating you have zero clues what happens around Wings and Sqns, all of which are dangerously short of qualified and experienced techs who are trying to keep daily flying ops happen.

Plan better; maybe the answer is “cut down DLN crap” to enable Ops to continue as needed.

Seriously. This problem negatively impacted our Sqn and its mandates and stakeholders. It was frustrating from the Sqn Boss level on down. This wasn’t just something at Quirky’s Sqn that made people curse.