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Replacing the Subs

I saw that and glad you posted it here. It's something that I'm embarassed to say I didn't even think about when examining sub options for Canada. My Eurofocus is showing, I really need to branch out and focus on Asia Pacific more and their programs.
 
I saw that and glad you posted it here. It's something that I'm embarassed to say I didn't even think about when examining sub options for Canada. My Eurofocus is showing, I really need to branch out and focus on Asia Pacific more and their programs.
It might be interesting to talk to the Americans about their experiences operating against the various Asian fleets during exercises. It sure beats paging through sale's brouchures.
 
More interesting stuff related to the Korean subs and Canada:


And Hanwha is also involved in its own XLUUV solution.


Which brings us back around to this


and this


and this

  • 23px-Flag_of_Austria.svg.png
    Austria: 32 in use with the Austrian Army. Ordered in July 2016, first vehicles delivered in February 2019.[23][24]
  • 23px-Flag_of_France.svg.png
    France: 53 BvS10 in use with the French Army.[25]
  • 23px-Flag_of_the_Netherlands.svg.png
    Netherlands: 73 BvS10 in use with the Netherlands Marine Corps.[26]
  • 23px-Flag_of_Sweden.svg.png
    Sweden: 153 BvS10 MkII in use with the Swedish Army.[27] New order in 2021 for 127 BvS10 vehicles with a 2022 follow-on order for 40[18] and 236 under the CATV program.
  • 23px-Flag_of_the_United_Kingdom.svg.png
    United Kingdom: 99 BvS-10 Mk2 in use with the Royal Marines.[28] 60 ordered under the CATV program to be delivered from 2024 onwards.
  • 23px-Flag_of_Ukraine.svg.png
    Ukraine: 28 ex-Dutch BvS-10s donated to Ukraine prior to March 2023.[29]

Future operators[edit]​

  • 23px-Flag_of_Canada_%28Pantone%29.svg.png
    Canada: The Canadian Army is currently tendering the purchase of 100 vehicles under the Domestic Arctic Mobility Enhancement for delivery from 2029-2030.
  • 23px-Flag_of_the_United_States.svg.png
    United States: 136 Beowulf model to be delivered by 2029.
  • 23px-Flag_of_Germany.svg.png
    Germany: 140 CATV ordered with delivery commencing 2024.[30] + 227 vehicles ordered in March 2023 [31]

From the bottom up:

2029-2030 - US AND Canada to take delivery of 236 BvS10s - the newer, armoured/unarmoured version of the Bv206s currently operated by both countries in very small numbers. Enough to equip a single Arctic Brigade deployable by C130s and supportable by CH(1)47s?

Is this the timeline that Canada is now being "encouraged" to work towards?

Next up

Gilday's call for an Arctic RimPac, not necessarily led by the US but taking into account Chinese interests in the Arctic

North Eastern NATO now has different priorities than South Western NATO. The SW is focused on making friends with whoever supplies Siberian gas. The NE has a long cultural memory of the Hordes.

The SW has been cosying up to China. The NE sees China as a friend of Putin. China sees Putin as a useful ally so long as he is useful.

The NE has effectively been going its own way with the rise of, first, the Nordic Defence Co-Operation (NorDefCo) group of Iceland, Denmark, Norway, Sweden and Finland, then the Joint Expeditionary Force (JEF) of NorDefCo which incorporates Estonia, Latvia and Lithuania and is backed by the UK, and, by virtue of the involvement of the their marines with the Royal Marines, the Dutch. That group of countries covers what used to be known as the GIUK Gap (Greenland-Iceland-UK Gap) from Hans Island to the Kola Peninsula with Norway controlling Svalbard and Denmark controlling Greenland and the Faeroes with the UK controlling the Shetlands, Orkneys and Hebrides - all of which used to be known to the Scandinavians as the Sudreyjar, or Southern Islands, when they were the Lords of the Isles. With JEF backing Poland's backing of Ukraine, together with the Czechs and the Slovaks, the NE is becoming a very cohesive and interlinked block of its own. Not to mention being interoperable - Bv210s, CV90s, Huitfeldt Type 31s, interoperable missiles - and conducting their own Arctic Exercises which the US Navy has been joining.


Which brings us around to considering the weak points.

The first is Germany. Germany has always be torn between its Hanseatic North and its Danubian South. Always as in "predating the Romans".
Northern Germany is a Baltic nation of fishermen and sea traders. The South is heavily influenced by its association with the horse cultures of the Steppes (Bavaria as in B-AVAR-ia - the land of the AVARs, close cousins of the Magyars of Hungary). The North and South see the world differently. In so far as Germany is unified, while Northern Germany supports NE NATO Southern Germany is more traditionally aligned with SW NATO. While Germany supports NE NATO the Baltic is a NATO/JEF lake. If Germany decides to support SW NATO, or a third party, then it can become the Dog-in-the-manger.

Which puts Denmark in the frame as a very strategic country on two fronts. The first is the most obvious one of the cork in the bottle chanelling the all Baltic shipping through shallow seas of the Skaggerak, Kattegat, Storebaelt, Lillebaelt and the Helsingoer-Helsingborg strait. This was previously managed by coastal artillery, mines, fast patrol boats, and submarines. Denmark left the blue water stuff to the Royal Navy since Nelson visited in 1801 an borrowed their blue water ships. All good pals together now though.

But Denmark's "ownership" of the Faeroes and Greenland puts Denmark back into the blue water strategy game as a key player in the GIUK gap being responsible for the seas between Greenland and Norway's Svalbard in the north, Greenland and Iceland in the south as well as between Iceland and the Faeroes and the Faeroes and Bergen and the Faeroes and the Shetlands.

But Denmark's Greenland also dominates Hans Island, the Nares Strait, Baffin Bay and Davis Strait. Names that should be well known to Canadians. And the Scandinavians are well known in the Canadian arctic (Gjoa Haven eg), Newfoundland (l'Anse aux Meadows) and possibly/probably Oak Island. I'm betting on the Vikings as the original builders. Digression.

That is a lot of responsibility for a little country of 6 million. It will need all the help it can get from as many friends as it can find. Fortunately Norway has fielded a bit of blue water capability, 4 of 5 frigates and a half a dozen subs. The Brits are the primary force in the area and the Dutch have Atlantic interests as well (Curacao and St Maarten) so they contribute a bit of sea-going force as well.

Which finally brings us to Canada, also known as the GIUK Gap's western flank.

What is Canada going to do?

Our western flank focuses on Esquimalt, the Pacific and China. Alaska separates that fleet from our other western flank in the Arctic - the one that we don't give any thought to. The one dominated by Russia and the US. The one that exercises our US friends and leaves them wondering about attack routes over the Pole.

But "over the pole" is the least likely invasion route, as opposed to attack route. Over the pole is a possible route for bombardment, not for invasion, even small scale invasions. Small scale invasions of North are possible, however probable/improbable, via island hopping along the Aleutians, Big-Little Diomede and across the seasonally frozen Chukchi Sea. But those are American problems. Not ours.

The other route is from Nova Zemlya held by the Russians, Svalbard held by the Norwegians, Independence Fjord at the top end of Greenland held by Denmark, Thule held by the USAF and then across the Nares Strait by way of Hans Island to Ellesmere and that annoying Observation Post at Alert.

We might not be worried about this as a possibility worthy of developing realistic plans but it seems that the Scandinavians and the Brits certainly are. And the US North Command seems to be interested in what we are not doing up there. NorthCom has already taken NORAD under its wing and has extended its influence to the seas around North America as well as the skies over it. It has also started to push for more Army capability in the North.

We are starting to feel more pressure from a cash-strapped US that wants to spend more of its bucks on Canadian style healthcare and less on defending Canada.

But ...

This is Canada. We have no enemies. And the Russians? Well the Ukrainians will take care of them shortly for the next few decades.

But that would leave a vacuum in the Arctic - which Nature and the Chinese abhor. We would swap the Russian occupation of the Other Arctic for a Chinese occupation. Are they as likely to be as passive in exploiting opportunity as the Russians have been?

Most of the rest of the Arctic is betting NOT.

Which means that Canada's Arctic will be defended. Against the Chinese. By JEF, the Royal Navy and the Danes and Norwegians, or by the US.

All of which puts the issue of Chinese commercial and political involvement in Canada in perspective.

And the defence of the many channels and shallow seas of Canada's Arctic Archipelago. Which mimics, on a larger scale, the strategic situation that Denmark faces in its home waters along with its Kalmar Union associates of Norway and Sweden.

Those waters did not demand a long ranging blue water fleet. They demanded, and demand, Coastal Artillery, short range patrol boats, short range patrol submarines, sensors, mines, captor mines, minelayers and a flexible, manoeuverable army capable of seeing off marine and airborne landing attempts. It also demanded a well wired in and equipped GBAD air defence system based on HAWK missiles and NASAMs C2 as well as a strong force of F17s which co-operated with the Dutch and Norwegian F16s - and the Swedish Gripens.

And no doubt any revitalization of that defense system will be incorporating Uncrewed systems.

So, again, what is Canada going to do?

We have northern Elint in the form of Alert. We have satellite surveillance in the form of Radarsats. We have fighter cover in the form of F18s. All of which are to be upgraded if we believe the press.

We have a small army that can operate up there if it gets better kit in a timely fashion and more training opportunities. We have air assets that can support small army operations in the region. We even have a few platforms from which platoon / company scale operations can be supported by air - the AOPSs.

The AOPSs can also operate as mine-layers and UUV tenders supervising everything from Captors through SUUVs, MUUVs, LUUVs and Xtra Large Uncrewed Underwater Vessels - XLUUVs.

And we are acquiring RPAS SkyGuardians to operate in the Arctic.

And that brings us back around to Domestic Arctic Mobility Enhancement and BvS10s by 2030. And Submarines - Blue Water? Or Patrol Submarines and XLUUVs?
 
I got laughed at for my Chinese led scenario where they establish a "scientific research station" within the Canadian Arctic archipelago, with Russian help. I still believe it is a serious possibility.

I would not discount the Russian arctic presence just yet. They still have the worlds best icebreakers and a substantial fleet of smaller ones. Along with ice capable merchant ships and equipment and experience for arctic conditions. Supporting Chinese ambitions in the Arctic may be a way for Russia to regain some "respect" in the world. Plus their long range air force and majority of their mobile AD systems are intact.

Canada needs to develop the means to move, deploy and support a small group of highly competent soldiers into the Arctic. Properly equipped with a light footprint, but enough firepower to be a threat to anyone they meet. That means light missile systems (anti-armour, anti-ship and AD) Some DF & indirect capability (Carl G and mortars). Mobility via Bvs 10's , snowmobiles, LST's, fast assault craft like the CB 90. I would start by beefing up our Arctic training areas and designate 1 unit to do the majority of the training. I don't foresee a long ground conflict in the arctic, because both sides will struggle to sustain their forces. A lot of it will be the abilty to deploy and support in a hurry to counter any moves.
 
I got laughed at for my Chinese led scenario where they establish a "scientific research station" within the Canadian Arctic archipelago, with Russian help. I still believe it is a serious possibility.

I would not discount the Russian arctic presence just yet. They still have the worlds best icebreakers and a substantial fleet of smaller ones. Along with ice capable merchant ships and equipment and experience for arctic conditions. Supporting Chinese ambitions in the Arctic may be a way for Russia to regain some "respect" in the world. Plus their long range air force and majority of their mobile AD systems are intact.

Canada needs to develop the means to move, deploy and support a small group of highly competent soldiers into the Arctic. Properly equipped with a light footprint, but enough firepower to be a threat to anyone they meet. That means light missile systems (anti-armour, anti-ship and AD) Some DF & indirect capability (Carl G and mortars). Mobility via Bvs 10's , snowmobiles, LST's, fast assault craft like the CB 90. I would start by beefing up our Arctic training areas and designate 1 unit to do the majority of the training. I don't foresee a long ground conflict in the arctic, because both sides will struggle to sustain their forces. A lot of it will be the abilty to deploy and support in a hurry to counter any moves.

Like you I don't see a large, or heavy, force operating in the Canadian arctic any time soon. I too think there is a need to be able to rapidly deploy, by air, small groups of troops that are heavily armed with stand-off missiles and that can relocate rapidly on the ground by means of ground and air vehicles (BvS10s and Chinooks for example) and that can be resupplied while operating in platoon groups over long distances. In short, operating like the USMC in the Pacific.

But with the additional advantage of home court.

If there is a magic bullet for such a force I would look to Loitering Munitions. They supply Punch, Precision, Space/Range and Time. They are cruise missiles that can be left hovering for extended periods of time while the Platoon Commander on the ground sorts out her course of action and picks her targets in real time. In my mind that means things LIKE the Hero-120 and its larger and smaller brothers. It means things like Spike N-LOS/Exactor. It means things like the NSMs, perhaps mounted on the rear trailer of the BvS10s. But it also means things like the 1980s parents of Hero - FOG-M, EFOG-M and PolyPhem. In the 1980s those Fibre Optic Guided Missiles were looking at 50 km, Man in the Loop, directly observed and controlled, ranges. Back those troops with a BvS10 version of HIMARS, and GBADs, along with Brimstones mounted on F35s and RPAS, with NSMs/JSMs being carried on AOPS and F35s and we have a highly credible deterrent force for the Arctic. One that doesn't require a permanent presence. One that doesn't require a lot of human capital. One that can be supplied primarily from the Treasury.

But one that relies on having lots of ammunition on hand. Jobs for Canadians in the South. If they want them.
 
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Just as a reminder - Canada has a significant, exploitable, Arctic faultline.

64,235 Inuit in Canada
51,349 Inuit in Greenland
Greater Nunavut.jpg

Those lands were colonized by the Inuit about the same time as the Vikings were in l'Anse aux Meadows. The Vikings and the Inuit exchanged pleasantries, and DNA, in Disko Bay on Greenland.

Call it 120,000 people, with a cultural affinity, a legitimate, and accepted claim on their lands and a forum, the Arctic Council, for co-operation.

Who is going to make them the best offer? Donald Trump has already put in an offer to Greenland.

Who is going to invest in Inuit diamonds, iron and nickel?

The Dene have got the uranium sown up and the Cree own the oilsands.

Edit: the Dene look like they might be a good investment. Smaller population with an appreciating asset.

In the 2016 census, 27,430 people identified as having Dene ancestry.
In Canada, over 350,000 people are Cree or have Cree ancestry.
 
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Like you I don't see a large, or heavy, force operating in the Canadian arctic any time soon. I too think there is a need to be able to rapidly deploy, by air, small groups of troops that are heavily armed with stand-off missiles and that can relocate rapidly on the ground by means of ground and air vehicles (BvS10s and Chinooks for example) and that can be resupplied while operating in platoon groups over long distances. In short, operating like the USMC in the Pacific.

But with the additional advantage of home court.

If there is a magic bullet for such a force I would look to Loitering Munitions. They supply Punch, Precision, Space/Range and Time. They are cruise missiles that can be left hovering for extended periods of time while the Platoon Commander on the ground sorts out her course of action and picks her targets in real time. In my mind that means things LIKE the Hero-120 and its larger and smaller brothers. It means things like Spike N-LOS/Exactor. It means things like the NSMs, perhaps mounted on the rear trailer of the BvS10s. But it also means things like the 1980s parents of Hero - FOG-M, EFOG-M and PolyPhem. In the 1980s those Fibre Optic Guided Missiles were looking at 50 km, Man in the Loop, directly observed and controlled, ranges. Back those troops with a BvS10 version of HIMARS, and GBADs, along with Brimstones mounted on F35s and RPAS, with NSMs/JSMs being carried on AOPS and F35s and we have a highly credible deterrent force for the Arctic. One that doesn't require a permanent presence. One that doesn't require a lot of human capital. One that can be supplied primarily from the Treasury.

But one that relies on having lots of ammunition on hand. Jobs for Canadians in the South. If they want them.
Keep in mind the cold is going to play havoc with batteries and electronics. Plus navigation, even electronic is still iffy up there. Plus you always have three enemies, the opponent, the cold and the weather.
 

maybe the Koreans know something we dont

"HD HHI and Hanwha Ocean are both gearing up to compete for the Canadian Patrol Submarine Project (CPSP), according to industry sources on June 11. The Canadian Submarine Replacement Project will purchase up to 12 submarines for about 80 trillion won. It is expected to include full maintenance services and training programs."

"Hanwha Ocean and HD HHI are waging a war of nerves by simultaneously signing a technical cooperation agreement with British defense firm Babcock on June 7 in order to export submarines to Canada. “The Canadian submarine project, which is expected to involve dozens of global defense companies, is virtually a competition among Korean and Japanese shipyards,” said a defense industry insider."

Hyundai vs Hanwha-Daewoo
 
"HD HHI and Hanwha Ocean are both gearing up to compete for the Canadian Patrol Submarine Project (CPSP), according to industry sources on June 11. The Canadian Submarine Replacement Project will purchase up to 12 submarines for about 80 trillion won. It is expected to include full maintenance services and training programs."
One can only dream!
 

maybe the Koreans know something we dont

"HD HHI and Hanwha Ocean are both gearing up to compete for the Canadian Patrol Submarine Project (CPSP), according to industry sources on June 11. The Canadian Submarine Replacement Project will purchase up to 12 submarines for about 80 trillion won. It is expected to include full maintenance services and training programs."

"Hanwha Ocean and HD HHI are waging a war of nerves by simultaneously signing a technical cooperation agreement with British defense firm Babcock on June 7 in order to export submarines to Canada. “The Canadian submarine project, which is expected to involve dozens of global defense companies, is virtually a competition among Korean and Japanese shipyards,” said a defense industry insider."

Hyundai vs Hanwha-Daewoo
As far as I know the CPSP is still in requirements definition, so all this stuff with Korea is a bit puzzling.
 
As far as I know the CPSP is still in requirements definition, so all this stuff with Korea is a bit puzzling.
As far as I know Korea has been pretty aggressively pushing their kit as an alternative to the American or European options.

My guess is that they want to be seen as eager partners, that will work with our silly system, unlike other countries/companies.
 
As far as I know Korea has been pretty aggressively pushing their kit as an alternative to the American or European options.

My guess is that they want to be seen as eager partners, that will work with our silly system, unlike other countries/companies.
The Koreans have shown a remarkable flexibility in adapting to their customers needs and wants. That gives them a significant edge. Having Babcock onboard , likley will cause the Japanese bid to fall away, as the Japanese are very inexperienced in overseas military sales. and starting off with a finicky customer like Canada is not a great way to success.
 
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