A Deeply Fractured US

[Brad Sallows]

I think the perception of divide is larger, but not actually the real divide.

It's assuredly perception, and people whose paycheques depend on opinion-mongering and people who are deeply politically involved and highly partisan are mostly responsible. A legislature that isn't going to do very much for the next couple of years anyways was held up for a few days while some horse-trading went on, and the perception-shapers went (and go) on and on and on about circuses and dysfunction, ginning it up as some kind of crisis they can milk for headlines. They've had their self-pleasing moment of manufactured schadenfreude and things move on.

 

[Brad Sallows]

The moderate middle is already emphatically divided into two hills, one on the left and one on the right. There's a trough in the middle which includes the ex-neocons, endlessly bleating powerlessly into the aether about the necessity of delivering the Republican party back into their hands so they can go to war wherever opportunities present. They aren't getting any traction because most of the middle is in the hill to the left or the one to the right.

Progressives by definition seek a faster rate of change than conservatives. You can choose any mapping system you wish and map every person into it based on whatever independent dimensions it has. People being tribal, there will be clusters in the space. You can assign labels to the clusters. Then, over time, because of the differences in acceptance/desire of change, the clusters will diverge. Reconvergence is unlikely except when driven by the necessity of confronting extraordinary problems.

 

[Remius]

https://www.cnn.com/2023/01/09/politics/joe-biden-classified-documents-upenn/index.html

What is it about US presidents that can’t get a grip of their shit?

 

[Furniture]

https://www.cnn.com/2023/01/09/politics/joe-biden-classified-documents-upenn/index.html

What is it about US presidents that can’t get a grip of their shit?

They are "above the rules", and things only come out when multiple levels of people make a mistake.

I'm willing to bet all of them break the security rules on a regular basis, it's just that someone else catches the lapses before they become known.

 

[brihard]

https://www.cnn.com/2023/01/09/politics/joe-biden-classified-documents-upenn/index.html

What is it about US presidents that can’t get a grip of their shit?

Well that’s obviously a huge problem, especially at TS with SCI.

Investigate fully, and prosecute if appropriate/legally possible.

The proactive discovery and disclosure and apparent cooperation will certainly be mitigatory, but do not excuse mishandling.

I’m curious how it is that they got there, how they were discovered, and how they were stored.

 

[Remius]

Apparently some if his lawyers found it in one of his personal offices and immediately contacted the National Archives

 

[QV]

Well that’s obviously a huge problem, especially at TS with SCI.

Investigate fully, and prosecute if appropriate/legally possible.

The proactive discovery and disclosure and apparent cooperation will certainly be mitigatory, but do not excuse mishandling.

I’m curious how it is that they got there, how they were discovered, and how they were stored.

I think it’s time to raid his home and publish his tax returns, and his son‘s taxes too what the hell.

 

[Remius]

I think it’s time to raid his home and publish his tax returns, and his son‘s taxes too what the hell.

If he has TS documents at a personal residence that is not secured for it and he obstructs and fails to comply with requests and subpoenas then yes. Taxes are already published.

I’ll be curious if he claims he can declassify things with his mind though. Apparently he can according to some.

 

[brihard]

I think it’s time to raid his home and publish his tax returns, and his son‘s taxes too what the hell.

Probable cause; already proactively released and published; son’s not an elected official nor the beneficiary of a sweetheart nepotism gig, etc etc; but that’s OK, I know you’re doing your best.

Obviously if investigators were to form probable cause to believe that Biden is illegally storing classified documents somewhere, then of course I’d support getting a search warrant to further that investigation.

Party affiliation doesn’t factor into my thinking on whether mishandling classified material gets investigated or prosecuted. Nor will I accuse you of it factoring into yours. So from your eagerness to see Biden investigated and his property searched based on this, I infer that you’re happy to see appropriate investigative steps taken to figure out why TS//SI and other extremely classified stuff was recovered from Mar a Lago.

I applaud your commitment to impartial justice.

 

[kkwd]

I stand to be corrected on any points in this post.
Does it matter that Biden didn't have presidential powers at the time these documents went astray? Well, maybe Obama delegated Biden to handle such documents in such a way.
Edit to add: Obama couldn't weigh in, both he and Biden were out of office at the time.
Is it important that they were in a non governmental office used by a private foundation attached to Penn State? Maybe the documents being in that situation for 2 whole years matters.
Who had access to them while they sat there?
Were the classified documents "intermingled" with unclassified ones?
Questions for an inquiry perhaps. Well, John Lausch Jr, the US Attorney in Chicago is taking over the investigation. By the way, he is Trump holdover.

 

[QV]

Probable cause; already proactively released and published; son’s not an elected official nor the beneficiary of a sweetheart nepotism gig, etc etc; but that’s OK, I know you’re doing your best.

Obviously if investigators were to form probable cause to believe that Biden is illegally storing classified documents somewhere, then of course I’d support getting a search warrant to further that investigation.

Party affiliation doesn’t factor into my thinking on whether mishandling classified material gets investigated or prosecuted. Nor will I accuse you of it factoring into yours. So from your eagerness to see Biden investigated and his property searched based on this, I infer that you’re happy to see appropriate investigative steps taken to figure out why TS//SI and other extremely classified stuff was recovered from Mar a Lago.

I applaud your commitment to impartial justice.

Your bias and ignorance is well noted on this forum. I’m just amused my one line posts generate that kind of retort from you. Rent free in your head.

 

[dimsum]

Your bias and ignorance is well noted on this forum. I’m just amused my one line posts generate that kind of retort from you. Rent free in your head.

Is it "rent free" if it's in response to a post though?

 

[brihard]

I stand to be corrected on any points in this post.
Does it matter that Biden didn't have presidential powers at the time these documents went astray? Well, maybe Obama delegated Biden to handle such documents in such a way.
Edit to add: Obama couldn't weigh in, both he and Biden were out of office at the time.
Is it important that they were in a non governmental office used by a private foundation attached to Penn State? Maybe the documents being in that situation for 2 whole years matters.
Who had access to them while they sat there?
Were the classified documents "intermingled" with unclassified ones?
Questions for an inquiry perhaps. Well, John Lausch Jr, the US Attorney in Chicago is taking over the investigation. By the way, he is Trump holdover.

Lack of current official appointment; location of the office, location within the office, who had access, and intermingling with personal or other effects are absolutely all relevant to determining if a criminal offense was committed, and if so by whom.

Investigators will need to determine where those documents came from, how they got there, who is responsible for same, and how and why they got forgotten/abandoned, or if they were deliberately retained. There are quite a lot of steps they’ll need to take.

 

[lenaitch]

Life would be so much simpler if the 'smell test' - the benchmark used by much of the public and media - was the basis for law enforcement action. I'm not sure it would be better.

 

[Good2Golf]

Life would be so much simpler if the 'smell test' - the benchmark used by much of the public and media - was the basis for law enforcement action. I'm not sure it would be better.

Some people are good at plugging their noses.

 

[Brad Sallows]

Presumably since he wasn't president at the time, the matter should be handled as it would for any other ordinary person.

 

[Fishbone Jones]

He wasn't President. He was Vice President with zero power to declassify the documents or hold, in possession, said documents. He broke the law by having them. Especially when he was between jobs and a civilian. How they were stored, who had access, etc is immaterial of the fact he commited a felony. Found on Nov 2, but not publicly acknowledged until after the mid terms. They must really believe people are that stupid. Mar-A-Lago was a joke, but this should put Smith’s investigation on the rails. No matter how they try spin it, it will only add proof about the two tiered justice system they have going.

 

[brihard]

He wasn't President. He was Vice President with zero power to declassify the documents or hold, in possession, said documents. He broke the law by having them. Especially when he was between jobs and a civilian. How they were stored, who had access, etc is immaterial of the fact he commited a felony.

Mar-A-Lago was a joke

Lol, how can you possibly square these two statements? And how can you feel able to pronounce very important facts in determining culpability as “immaterial”? The things you said are two of the more significant factors in investigating and potentially prosecuting an offense relating to the retention or mishandling of classified documents.

Regarding Mar-a-Lago, Trump ceased to be president on January 20th, 2021. He similarly had zero lawful entitlement to retain such government documents as a civilian who formerly served in office. Any pronouncements you make about the feloniousness of retaining classified documents must apply equally.

And of course, just to anticipate and knock down any claim that he declassified them with his mind or whatever, they were still “defense information”, and illegal to retain regardless of classification or purported declassification.

Whether or not Trump is in fact criminally culpable for documents retrieved from his residence, and for obstructing that investigation is, as I’ve said before, yet to be determined- as it is for Biden in the case of these newly found and turned over ones from his former office. But the latter case will not excuse or vitiate any criminality in the former. Each is a fact set that exists independently of the other, and which must be independently investigated and, if appropriate, prosecuted.

 

[Bruce Monkhouse]

Lol, how can you possibly square these two statements? And how can you feel able to pronounce very important facts in determining culpability as “immaterial”? The things you said are two of the more significant factors in investigating and potentially prosecuting an offense relating to the retention or mishandling of classified documents.

Regarding Mar-a-Lago, Trump ceased to be president on January 20th, 2021. He similarly had zero lawful entitlement to retain such government documents as a civilian who formerly served in office. Any pronouncements you make about the feloniousness of retaining classified documents must apply equally.

And of course, just to anticipate and knock down any claim that he declassified them with his mind or whatever, they were still “defense information”, and illegal to retain regardless of classification or purported declassification.

Whether or not Trump is in fact criminally culpable for documents retrieved from his residence, and for obstructing that investigation is, as I’ve said before, yet to be determined- as it is for Biden in the case of these newly found and turned over ones from his former office. But the latter case will not excuse or vitiate any criminality in the former. Each is a fact set that exists independently of the other, and which must be independently investigated and, if appropriate, prosecuted.

You don't get the internet, do you??

 

[brihard]

You don't get the internet, do you??

Lol, I get it all too well.