A Deeply Fractured US

[QV]

Some stuff gets spun up to high speed in the media before an election. And some stuff is held back from release until after an election. Hard to work out the underlying principles which determine what gets revealed and what doesn't, and what gets hyped and what gets understated. A puzzlement, I tell you.

When people who typically have a lot to say give a pass to this kind of scandalous behavior it speaks volumes about their character.

 

[KevinB]

How Trump, Biden and Clinton secret files cases compare

There are some key differences between the four cases, which centre on the handling of secret material.

www.bbc.com

 

[brihard]

How Trump, Biden and Clinton secret files cases compare

There are some key differences between the four cases, which centre on the handling of secret material.

www.bbc.com

A relatively shallow article, but that said, little is known so far about what was recovered from Biden’s office(s).

On the one hand, there’s Biden’s team finding docs, approaching NARA, immediately handing them over, and then proactively searching other locations and turning over anything else found once realized that it existed and was held.

In the other case, NARA tried for months to get presidential records back from Trump’s team. They were rebuffed. They got a subpoena. Some but not all records were retrieved. A lawyer signed off, falsely, that a thorough search had been done everything had been found and returned. Then investigators got information there was more, obtained and executed a search warrant, and found hundreds more documents. Based on published affidavits, investigators also allege criminal obstruction of that investigation.

There are major differences in the fact sets that will matter for establishing the necessary intent to commit various crimes. I would not be surprised if, in the Mar-a-Lago case, any eventual prosecution focuses only on the documents that were retrieved in the search warrant, and not those turned over in response to subpoena, or the ones discovered at an off site storage locker and turned over.

Both cases call for diligent investigation and very careful application of law. Each case deserves to be conducted and assessed based on its own factual merits.

 

[Navy_Pete]

In both cases does sound like there is some really loose handling of TS and SCI documents that may just be systematic in the POTUS office generally.

I've never had to handle anything higher then secret, which got mustered regularly, but thought that those were tracked much more closely, so crazy that they weren't missed.

 

[KevinB]

In both cases does sound like there is some really loose handling of TS and SCI documents that may just be systematic in the POTUS office generally.

I've never had to handle anything higher then secret, which got mustered regularly, but thought that those were tracked much more closely, so crazy that they weren't missed.

The Military, Intel and other USG element (and contractor) side is held to a very very different standard than elected officials and their offices.

The idea that SCIF’s be used for TS+ intelligence and CDO’s or SO’s have control of documents is utterly Foreign to Politicians and their hangers-on.

 

[Lumber]

The right/Trump supporters are using this as a "gotcha" moment and it's blowing up in their faces.

When Trump's case first came about, they tried brushing it off using every excuse in the book and refused to acknowledge that something wrong (read: a crime) had actually been committed. Now though, in order to implicate Biden, they are having to admit Trump's wrongdoing.

Then, they except the left/Biden/Democrat supporters to try and brush-off Biden's case the same way the right brushed of Trump's case, but that's not happening. Just about everyone on the right is saying "investigate the situation, and if warranted, charge him".

Finally, they forget that charging him would likely be a good thing for the left. If he is charged and removed from office, guess who's comes into power? Kamala fucking Harris (which might not be good for the left, might just be bad for everybody...). But what would be even better is if he's charged, kept in office, but barred from running in the next election, thereby guaranteeing the Dems don't do something stupid and try and nominate Biden for a 2nd term.

 

[Remius]

So it looks like the second set of docs were at his Delaware home in a garage.

 

[Brad Sallows]

Much of "the right" would be happy to see Trump taken out, and much of "the left" would be happy to see Biden taken out. Both men still have bases of support. Much of the "the right" would also be happy to see Harris positioned as the incumbent for 2024; much of "the left", less so.

My guess is that sloppy document handling by politicians is, and always has been, widespread. Among the most powerful, I suppose a sense of entitlement must exist, based on other behaviours - so why shouldn't they feel entitled to hold paper about whatever they want?

 

[QV]

When is the collective media going to talk about the nuclear codes he was selling to China that were stored in his garage?

 

[brihard]

Much of "the right" would be happy to see Trump taken out, and much of "the left" would be happy to see Biden taken out. Both men still have bases of support. Much of the "the right" would also be happy to see Harris positioned as the incumbent for 2024; much of "the left", less so.

My guess is that sloppy document handling by politicians is, and always has been, widespread. Among the most powerful, I suppose a sense of entitlement must exist, based on other behaviours - so why shouldn't they feel entitled to hold paper about whatever they want?

I suspect there’s a fair bit of truth to this, and that there’s a line somewhere in the sand where security lapses become criminal offences; a big part of that will be intent, including actions taken and choices made once an issue is identified that needs addressing.

As near as I can tell, the complaints about the handling of the Biden revelations is this: days before the election, someone on Biden’s team found classified material in an office. NARA was contacted immediately and the documents, in their totality, handed over to NARA the next day, also before the election. A search was then conducted or other locations that identified more at his Delaware residence. All of this, so far, is proper. Where people appear to be taking offense is that this was not immediately revealed in time to impact the election. The complaint appears motivated by politics rather than out of concern for the law. What’s not clear is whether there is any standard practice of proactive public disclosure of the recovery of mishandled classified documents. I strongly suspect there isn’t. It’s also not clear who, exactly, people believe should have been in a hurry to disclose this.

So, something damaging was found and properly remedied just before the election, and nobody at that time leaked it. That’s what I’m taking out of it. What they did NOT do was say “ok, lock the room, STFU, and we’ll deal with this next week”. They did the correct thing under the law and under national security best practices, despite risks of a politically damaging leak immediately before the midterms.

The US Department of Justice has a practice of not taking overt investigative steps in politically sensitive investigations in the 60 days prior to an election; that’s why visible actions by DOJ in the Mar-a-Lago and January 6th grand jury investigations dried up in late August and stayed quiet til later in November. The intent is not to potentially sway elections by taking public and potentially sensational investigative acts. That’s entirely reasonable; for instance, there were people baying for more investigate steps against Trump in September and October; DOJ appropriately did not do so. Anything that mattered in Sept or Oct could wait til Nov or Dec. However, what’s good for the goose is good for the gander. Just as both sets of facts deserve a proper investigation, so too should both cases not be leveraged by the most ration or other executive branch actors to potentially impact election results.

If the thing that would make people happy would have been for a leaker in NARA to disclose this days before the election, well then it’s very clear what motives underlie that want. By all means people can be as partisan as they like, but that doesn’t make the gripe legitimate or well founded.

 

[Remius]

Special counsel named to probe Biden's handling of documents

U.S. Attorney General Merrick Garland on Thursday announced the appointment of a special counsel to investigate President Joe Biden's handling of sensitive government documents - an inquiry that could cast a shadow over the Democrat's expected run for re-election in 2024.

www.reuters.com

DOJ making moves.

 

[Remius]

Here is the wiki page and bio for the special counsel for anyone that may be curious.

Robert K. Hur - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

 

[Navy_Pete]

Here is the wiki page and bio for the special counsel for anyone that may be curious.

Robert K. Hur - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

BA from Harvard and JD from Stanford is pretty impressive, my impression is between the name recognition and built in networking at both schools that folks like that are choosing to be in the DoJ and likely would have easily been able to get a lucrative private practice job.

From the outside, both seem to have not properly handled the classified docs (including their team, as I doubt either of them packed up the boxes). I think the difference will be the volume as well as follow on actions and if they crossed over from obstruction.

Biden seems to be more just negligence, and if they reported things when they found it that would be a mitigating factor, while the lack of cooperation and possible not reporting things tends to add on obstruction as an aggragating factor.

Seems a bit like getting into a car accident and calling the police, compared to driving off and trying to fix your car up to cover up the evidence of hit and run. In both cases may have been at fault for the car accident, but you will definitely get the book thrown harder at you if you run away and try and bury it.

 

[brihard]

Special counsel named to probe Biden's handling of documents

U.S. Attorney General Merrick Garland on Thursday announced the appointment of a special counsel to investigate President Joe Biden's handling of sensitive government documents - an inquiry that could cast a shadow over the Democrat's expected run for re-election in 2024.

www.reuters.com

DOJ making moves.

Good, as it should be. Find the facts, and apply the law.

 

[TacticalTea]

The Military, Intel and other USG element (and contractor) side is held to a very very different standard than elected officials and their offices.

The idea that SCIF’s be used for TS+ intelligence and CDO’s or SO’s have control of documents is utterly Foreign to Politicians and their hangers-on.

We had Maxime Bernier let his girlfriend run to the Hell's Angels with documents he had left on their bedside table. so it's definitely not a US-specific thing.

 

[RangerRay]

We had Maxime Bernier let his girlfriend run to the Hell's Angels with documents he had left on their bedside table. so it's definitely not a US-specific thing.

I knew he had a dodgy girlfriend, but I didn’t hear about that. I had heard he had left documents on a train.

 

[TacticalTea]

I knew he had a dodgy girlfriend, but I didn’t hear about that. I had heard he had left documents on a train.

Right, sorry. Seems my memory might've preferred to sensationalize the story a bit. It was not on a train, there's just - as far as I know - no evidence that she actually took it to the HAs.

Canadian foreign minister quits over secret papers

Canadian Foreign Minister Maxime Bernier resigned on Monday after it emerged he had left classified documents in the apartment of a former girlfriend who was once linked to organized crime figures.

www.reuters.com

“ 'He came to my place, then he left, and the document remained with me,' [...] She said she had given the document to a lawyer who returned it to the government.'' -Julie Couillard, ''a former girlfriend who was once linked to organized crime figures''

 

[Remius]

Democrat suggests classified docs in Biden's home, office may have been 'planted' after second batch found

A Democratic representative told Fox News that the classified documents found in President Biden's possession could have been "planted."

www.foxnews.com

Lol. This is as laughable as when Trump supporters were suggesting it…

 

[Navy_Pete]

Democrat suggests classified docs in Biden's home, office may have been 'planted' after second batch found

A Democratic representative told Fox News that the classified documents found in President Biden's possession could have been "planted."

www.foxnews.com

Lol. This is as laughable as when Trump supporters were suggesting it…

Maybe the Trump papers were a Super Deep State false flag plot to take down Biden and the Deep state with a separate false flag operation as no one would believe that's plausible.

 

[Bruce Monkhouse]

This whole thing puts me to sleep.....