• Thanks for stopping by. Logging in to a registered account will remove all generic ads. Please reach out with any questions or concerns.

You're getting it......for whatever purpose (RG-31 with RWS)

Not unless someone is trying to fit this system into a role it is not made for...

PSO/COIN issues are forcing the Militaries to adapt to a more flexible structure that what a standard TO&E would consist of, however you cannot use these systems to plug and play into a warfighting role.  We would be bankrupted trying to shoehorn the Nyala into replacing the LSVW and/or GWagon. 

It was bought to comfort the powers that be that they have done all they can to stop casualties to our side from IED's.  It is capable for some roles -- But really if you think you going to get into a furball -- take a LAV.  If your playing hearts and minds use soft skins like the locals... Or at least vehicles that look like soft skins.


 
On the topic of Javelins and RWS - here is a RWS station that mounted a Javelin and an M2 .50 cal HMG that was displayed at the AUSA show.  Might be a nice thing to top our vehicle with....

 
KevinB said:
It was bought to comfort the powers that be that they have done all they can to stop casualties to our side from IED's.  If your playing hearts and minds use soft skins like the locals... Or at least vehicles that look like soft skins.
You talk about stopping IED casulties like its a bad thing? Almost every contingent I worked with would have given their left arm for a Nyala, including those riding around in open top G-wagons. Open top vehicles bristling with weapons are no deterrent or concern to a pressure plate IED or a Spider Device initiated by a Cell Phone or FRS from a safe distance. The only CF Troops in the Kandahar area that require open top soft skins already have them. So if you really want to ride around in one, start doing your application for the farm.

KevinB said:
It is capable for some roles -- But really if you think you going to get into a furball -- take a LAV.  
No thanks... The most effective weapon on my LAV III in Afghanistan was my C-8.

I see all the armchair quarterbacks are in full swing with this.
 
DG-41 said:
Should I be concerned that half the pics showed stuck/rolled vehicles?

No, not at all. I get paid to find roads and designate them. Sometimes you get stuck.

FWIW, all we had to do to the rolled one was tip it back on to its wheels, top up the oil, and then we drove it away.
 
armybuck041 said:
I see all the armchair quarterbacks are in full swing with this.

They just dont have your perspective.....I was glad to see all the pics....wish i had been there with you ( beleive it or not i miss those days sometimes) .  I may be overhead soon though !!
 
MCG said:
It was used for route recces intended to determine the mine threat (though even many Engr incorrectly reffered to this as "route prooving").

I agree that Designation (Route Recce) and Clearance are two separate tasks, but it can and has been used for Route Proving/Proofing after a Clearance Op.
 

Driving over a High Risk uncleared route would be very dumb regardless of the vehicle. Even though its mine "hardened", past incidents have shown that occupants don't exactly walk away from a mine strike either.
 
armybuck041 said:
I see all the armchair quarterbacks are in full swing with this.

:'(   You've hurt my feelings.


 
KevinB said:
:'(   You've hurt my feelings.

Hey don't get me wrong, its just day after day I see people slam equipment on here, or pick it apart so bad it leaves the slightly less educated confused. I think that this purchase is a step in the right direction. Feedback about the G-Wagons made its way upstairs and I think they came up with a reasonable compromise with this.

Listen up ney sayers:

Its not a fish bowl.

It can be fought out of quite easily with Small Arms from its 9 hatches.

It has more blast/frag protection that a LAV III. Yes, the glass is very thick and strong. We shot a spare panel with a .50 Cal to answer our own curiousities.

It provides the complete crew and passengers with much more situational awareness than any other A-Veh.

And you didn't have to wait 10 years to get it.





   
 
At bottom Armybuck you've described the most important aspect of any kit and that is that the folks using it are comfortable with it so that they can get the job done.

Cheers.
 
ArmyBuck -- my issue is with the RWS - I cant stand them.  Add in the fact some risk adverse commander will order hatches down, I saw a Col make LAV and Coyote crews unload their MBGD's due to his worry they might go off accidentally.  I understand the desire to mitigate damage from IED's - I've seen the damage they can do.  The issue with the RWS - is the same problem as crews running the LAV with the battle overide on  with troops out the family hatches, as well as lack of SA if they are buttoned up. 

I've done both the soft skin and hard skin driving in Afghan -- my preference is for soft skin above the drivers doors in a green vehicle and in a civilian pattern laminate (shoot out) windows with armoured floor and doors. 

I even sat in a Nyala once  ;)
 
Well, I may as well chime in from the armchair.   :)

This thing seems to fit the bill to me.   I was discussing this with Matt Fisher the other day, the idea of the "in between" vehicle for SASO operations (what we are essentially conducting.   Soft-skin, open vehicles have their advantages and are the vehicle of choice in low threat environments where hearts-and-minds is the key.   When we are in full on warfighting, a LAV or similar Fighting Vehicle is desired, as were more concerned about mobility and firepower to deliver shock to the enemy.   This vehicle sits in the middle of the two - because it sits in the middle of the two it may fit the bill for Security And Stability Operations (SASO) or COunterInsurgency Operations (COIN) where, although hearts-and-minds is still important, the overlying concern is security against a very active and deadly enemy force.   You are establishing presence to tell the enemy that you are not going home - you will most likely draw attacks while attempting to find ways to undermine his capability and will to fight.   Trying to conduct this "middle-ground" operation with too little or too much force protection and firepower may be counter-productive.

To date, 633 of the 2127 US servicemen killed Iraq have been caused by IEDs (30%).   When you remove the 514 non-hostile fatalities, that means that IED's account for over 1/3 of all KIA's in Iraq (the breakdown is here, you use the filter to narrow things down).   It is the single largest killer of Coalition soldiers in Iraq - to me this high number means that IED's aren't simply another tactic of the Insurgency, but a whole campaign in its own right.

Of the 147 Coalition hostile deaths in Afghanistan, 34 were from IEDs (data can be found here).   That is nearly a quarter of all KIA in Afghanistan (23%)   The attack that killed Sgt Short and Cpl Beerenfenger is listed as the first IED attack in Afghanistan (I'm not sure if how it is officially listed with us).   Even more alarming is that almost all the IED attacks occurred in 2004 and 2005, two years after the invasion and rout of the Taliban.   This indicates that Afghan insurgents (and foreign fighters as well) have learned from (or even been to) the Iraqi Insurgency and the toll that the IED campaign is taking on us there and have imported a very deadly and effective technique to fight against us in Afghanistan   :-\.

Of course, these figures don't include the other typical insurgency techniques we see - mines, RPG attacks, suicide bombers and ambushes.   These would only bump the already high percentages up even more.  As well, the wounded in these attacks aren't addressed, but I can only imagine how high those numbers are.

LtCol Dave Banks' interviews of US soldiers deployed to Afghanistan highlighted the importance of mobility operations in this "middle-ground" environment of an active insurgency.   If we are going to be conducting mobility operations, we want to be able to do so without inviting the deadly toll that IEDs, mines, and ambushes, which are the enemies primary offensive tactics.   This indicates the need for a vehicle that can take the punishment but still offer us more flexibility and effective presence than an armoured fighting vehicle.   Light, soft skin vehicles simply disintergrate in the face of an effective IED attack - those movies that Hadji puts on the internet tell us as much.   The RWS debate is important, as it sacrifices a bit of situational awareness for more force protection, but I think that if in general, this vehicle lives up to its press (which it seems to, according to those in the know) then perhaps it is the right vehicle to have heading into this "middle ground" of active insurgency.

My 2 cents from the armchair,
Infanteer
 
KevinB, I totally agree with you on the topic of RWS. Half of our new APC's have them and no doubt it encourages people to stare at a monitor instead of scanning their surroundings. But, if it becomes too dangerous to ride heads up, it does provide the crew with some options. Based on the numbers, it seems only some of these new RG-31's will have them.

Infanteer, exactly.... That was the direction I was heading with my posts but didn't have all the numbers to back it up. Although I am not an IEDD Operator, by way of my position I worked in very close proximity or sometimes in conjunction with them. While in Kandahar I had an opportunity to see first hand the type of devices being found/confiscated in local area by the US CEXC Cell. The insurgent success' and technology in Iraq has made its way into Afghanistan. In the majority of these attacks, the initiator of the device is never found. Our own little SOP's were that we drove hatches open with a C-9 up in the urban areas and then buttoned up for the highways where past IED attacks had occurred. If an attack is successful its almost guarenteed they will use that area again. Jalalabad Hwy in Kabul and Hwy 4 in Kandahar come to mind. The book "When the Bear went over the Mountain" makes quite a few references to the fact that the Soviets were hit in the same places in almost exactly the same way, over and over again until they started to employ countermeasures to prevent it.

So many people on this forum talk of the need for soft skin vehicles, while US Troops are scrambling to find steel to bolt to their Humvee's and buying RG-31's and other similar vehicles because of the IED success in Iraq. We need to hoist these lessons learned aboard as we too will soon be facing this threat much more often. 
 
Lastly, we (Combat Engineers) need to start doing a better job educating the remainder of the Army on these new threats and how they are employed. We have trained everyone to react to a Balkans style mine strike and not an IED attack. A crews reaction the first few seconds after an IED attack scanning for secondary hostile actions may be the difference between......
Unfortunately the SANDI Drills don't really highlight this need and train pers to be looking out for other mines and not an insurgent crawling into position with an RPG.          
     
 
I'm not a huge fan of the RWS either, but I *am* a huge fan of the sensors on them. Thermal imaging and high magnification? Sign me up!

It looks like a better recce vehicle than GWagon. It's not *exactly* what I'd want were I given blank slate, but it's better than what I expected.

So when does my troop show up?

:D

DG
 
armybuck041  -- okay now I like your posts.  ;D

  FWIW you had best get that info out to the 031 trade -


I do like the Nyala, it offers much more than a GWagon for both room and protection - I just wish at the same time the HkGMG could have been fitted and a hard point for a C9 or C6 been fitted by the rear two family hatches -- if you've ever tried to shoot a weapon off a moving vehicle its a fricken nightmare even if its fixed -- and its a ready built disaster off hand.

 
KevinB said:
armybuck041   -- okay now I like your posts.   ;D

    FWIW you had best get that info out to the 031 trade -

I do like the Nyala, it offers much more than a GWagon for both room and protection - I just wish at the same time the HkGMG could have been fitted and a hard point for a C9 or C6 been fitted by the rear two family hatches -- if you've ever tried to shoot a weapon off a moving vehicle its a fricken nightmare even if its fixed -- and its a ready built disaster off hand.

I will be heavily involved with the pretraining for TF3-06, and intend to work with the IEDD lads to develop some realistic scenarios based on actual attacks in the Kandahar Region.

 
 
So if I am reading this correctly, the RG-31 is in essence a new generation M-113 type Battle Taxi, with mobility and firepower upgrades to operate in the "new" environment.

There is nothing wrong with a "Battle Taxi" per se, and if this is indeed the case, I would say why not build the fleet to provide protected mobility to everyone who needs it? Echelon vehicles, CP's, and Reserve units are among the users who could benefit, and a big production run of several hundred RG-31s would provide economies of scale, as well as the critical mass of experience to suggest and impliment the mods mentioned above. This would also allow the LAVs to be reallocated, reducing some of the stress caused by so called "Whole Fleet" management.

Of course this still leaves some gaps in our fleet, but every bit counts.
 
If this vehicle is taking the g wagon's place for most patrols, will this mean that the reserves will see g wagons soon? Or more of them then originally intended for the reserves?  >:D
 
Back
Top