Women In the Infantry

[brihard]

RyaeC, I'll be candid with you.

Personally I do not like working with females in the infantry. Both for the high percent of them that I've found tried using being a female to their advantage, played the flirty flirty game, weren't up to it physically or mentally AND because of how stupid male soldiers behave and act near them.  Makes me embarrassed being male.
(I'm talking from a grunt level, it seems to be different for officers).
You can say well that's the guys problem not mine, but it is. Because the infantry is a small team environment and if you're the odd one out for whatever reason than your time there is hell. You date one of the guys in your unit and as silly as it is, the guys stop seeing you as a soldier and more as a chick that corporal whoever was humping.

My personally feelings aside, from what I have witnessed women that join the infantry sooner rather than later end up leaving. They don't like it, they don't like how guys treat them, they get tired of the BS. They don't have a lot of fun.  It's not fair but guys treat them differently, judge them much harsher and don't often accept them as peers or equals.
You should ask why there are not many women in the infantry. It's not that they can't do it physically, mentally or skill wise on their own, they can. It's how the pack treats you.  Every little mistake a woman makes gets blown out of proportion.  It's not fair and it's not cool. Sorry.

There are lots of (well quite a few)  women in combat arms.  Artillery. Engineers. Armored. There are very very few in the infantry.

I hope you join the

Reluctantly, I have to agree with much of what he's saying. I have had the privilege of working with some excellent female infanteers, but only a few, and fewer still stick around.

The infantry is, primarily, an alpha male environment, predominately dominant type-A personalities too. A lot of aggressive, driven young men who self-reinforce on behaviour patterns. You will put up with a LOT of shit. There will be at least a small proportion who probably won't be able to get past seeing you as a piece of meat, and who will be bad at getting the hint when rebuffed. Dating anyone at work (should that occur) will have the exact consequences ObedientiaZelum talks about. When a dude screws up, 'whatever, he screwed up'. When a woman screws up, many are quick to jump to 'What did you expect? She's a chick.' Some men simply will not accept that you could potentially be as good as them or better at the job. It's ugly and backwards, but it is what it is.

You, I'm sure, are perfectly capable of being a good soldier in the infantry. I would be surprised if after much time you'd still want to. It's a challenging enough environment for anyone. Coming into it not fitting in by default will make it still tougher, and frankly you'd be subjecting yourself to more crap than any person should have to deal with, and more than most are able to. You'll be surrounded constantly by 'guys being guys' distilled to our essence- and it often ain't pretty.

That is my opinion, and I'm sure a few folks will be along before long to jump on me (and OZ) for it. I would never recommend joining the infantry to a female friend or relative, however, and would probably speak on the matter much more candidly still than I have here.

 

[RyaeC]

RyaeC, I'll be candid with you.

Personally I do not like working with females in the infantry. Both for the high percent of them that I've found tried using being a female to their advantage, played the flirty flirty game, weren't up to it physically or mentally AND because of how stupid male soldiers behave and act near them.  Makes me embarrassed being male.
(I'm talking from a grunt level, it seems to be different for officers).
You can say well that's the guys problem not mine, but it is. Because the infantry is a small team environment and if you're the odd one out for whatever reason than your time there is hell. You date one of the guys in your unit and as silly as it is, the guys stop seeing you as a soldier and more as a chick that corporal whoever was humping.

My personally feelings aside, from what I have witnessed women that join the infantry sooner rather than later end up leaving. They don't like it, they don't like how guys treat them, they get tired of the BS. They don't have a lot of fun.  It's not fair but guys treat them differently, judge them much harsher and don't often accept them as peers or equals.
You should ask why there are not many women in the infantry. It's not that they can't do it physically, mentally or skill wise on their own, they can. It's how the pack treats you.  Every little mistake a woman make sets blown out of proportion.  It's not fair and it's not cool. Sorry.

There are lots of (well quite a few)  women in combat arms.  Artillery. Engineers. Armored. There are very very few in the infantry.

I see what you are saying, and I agree, naturally men WILL act differently around a woman.

The difference being though that I am going into a professional career, and from a professional stand point. Fraternization with the men, will not occur. Not only because I have a boyfriend at home, but also single or not, this is a career, this is a professional environment. Not a frat house.

Now, also, thank you for the honestly, I talked to recruiters about my decision and they all said that they have seen lots of success for woman in the infantry. Also, I am prepared to pull my own weight, and NOT use my gender as a reason to "slack" and/or "manipulate". I think any behaviour like that makes me feel embarrassed to be a woman. I do not agree with it.

I am prepared, to expect the "BS" from the guys, but if I can perform, and do things without complaining, slacking etc. Then I believe through that, you can gain respect. It may take longer etc.

I am hoping since I have mostly dealt with males in Army Cadets and in general as I have more male friends than female. I will be able to deal with some of the harping.

I can show them that I:

1) Do not take any BS.
2) I am prepared to not slack,depend or pull out the female card.

But I respect what you have to say, and I thank you for your opinion.

 

[Jarnhamar]

Fair enough.

Just consider the phrase no battle plan survives contact with the enemy. I would bet Brihard's magic the gathering card collection (ha) that most of the girls who got caught up in all the mentioned unnicities didn't plan on it either.  Either way good luck.

 

[RyaeC]

Either way good luck.

Thank you! I look forward to (hopefully) getting "the call" and starting out in a challenging and new exciting career choice.

 

[brihard]

Thank you! I look forward to (hopefully) getting "the call" and starting out in a challenging and new exciting career choice.

It will certainly be those things.

 

[Scott]

I'm dizzy - how many of these "women in the CF" threads have been posted in the last couple of days?

 

[Mushroom]

Congratulations on doing well enough to be considered "competitive", Infantry has been highly competitive in recent years and I wish you the best of luck getting an offer come June, just go's to show that interviews and medicals are nothing to worry about when your prepared.

That said, ObedientiaZelum and Brihard have there points.  Infantry has been proven to be difficult for women in the past, present and will probably continue to be for a few more years until more women step up to the plate to prove them wrong, so its very important that should you be offered a position and you take it,  that you do not take it lightly, another female dropping out of infantry encourages the theory that females can't cut it, it will also discourage future females from trying. It doesn't just look bad on yourself, it looks bad on all females.

  Make sure you are fitter than fit, someone sitting across a desk and telling you, you appear fit is nothing.  Do not show up to your BMQ able to meet the standard which (and I'm sure others will agree) is already a bit of a joke. Showing up and doing 9 pushups to pass or running till level 4 on the beep test is like putting on a sign that says " I'm going to take advantage of being a girl and only do what I have to" I've had the pleasure and displeasure of meeting many infantrymen and for the most part there gym jockeys working out multiple hours a day (or so in my experience) which means their definitely exceeding the male standard and I believe your goal should be to do the same, if for no other reason than to show them you can do this from day 1.

You are going to be bullied,  there are no if's ands or but's about it. Prep yourself mentally,  I know you stated that you hang out with a primarily male entourage but I doubt those males are constantly taking stabs at you and callling you names. The level of perversion is also more than likely much tamer due to the fact that they respect you and don't consider you a piece of meat. After awhile the men you serve with will come to accept you but that may take some time and your going to have to earn it. In the meantime be prepared to be bullied, everyone is going to expect more of you especially your female counterparts, the last thing other female infanteers need is another girl showing up and making them look bad.

If you want to date in the military date, theres a reason you often see military dating and marrying other military. That said, for the love of god keep it out of your trade/unit.

I wish you the best of luck but please make sure this is what you want to do, it wont be easy, it may be one of the hardest things you'll ever have to do but that makes succeeding all the more sweet. I 100% believe that one day it wont be like this (look at how bad it was for women in even the non combat arms roles in the 70's) Things change, but for now every female that trys and gives up makes it that much harder for the next female, if enough women show up and show there the exception to the rule eventually the rule will change.

 

[Scott]

Umm, why not make it a whole exceed standards for the good of the job/self thingermerbober rather than exceed the standard just so you can show the guys you mean business? Guys do not spend "hours a day" working out just to further raise the bar for you...

 

[kenmnuggas]

Umm, why not make it a whole exceed standards for the good of the job/self thingermerbober rather than exceed the standard just so you can show the guys you mean business? Guys do not spend "hours a day" working out just to further raise the bar for you...

I don't see why the two have to be mutually exclusive. Do work or don't complain if people don't take you seriously.
Also I'm not sure where he implied that guys spending hours in a gym was in efforts to raise the bar for females ???

 

[daftandbarmy]

Way to do your bit for the economy:

Economic opportunity for women
Where to be female

..Where women have the most and least economic opportunities

MARKING International Women's Day on March 8th, the Economist Intelligence Unit, The Economist's sister company, has published its second Women's Economic Opportunity Index, assessing the environment for female employees and entrepreneurs across 128 countries. Nearly half the world’s women of working-age are not currently active in the formal labour market. As governments seek to revive ailing economies, welcoming these 1.5 billion women into formal employment will become ever more important.

http://www.economist.com/blogs/graphicdetail/2012/03/economic-opportunity-women?fb_ref=activity

 

[Redeye]

I see what you are saying, and I agree, naturally men WILL act differently around a woman.

The difference being though that I am going into a professional career, and from a professional stand point. Fraternization with the men, will not occur. Not only because I have a boyfriend at home, but also single or not, this is a career, this is a professional environment. Not a frat house.

It's not a frat house, true. But it's not like most civilian workplaces. The way that military people interact is not at all like civilians. I'm a Reservist so I get to see both sides of the street, and there's literally a night and day difference.

Now, also, thank you for the honestly, I talked to recruiters about my decision and they all said that they have seen lots of success for woman in the infantry. Also, I am prepared to pull my own weight, and NOT use my gender as a reason to "slack" and/or "manipulate". I think any behaviour like that makes me feel embarrassed to be a woman. I do not agree with it.

That's good, and important - but what you do doesn't matter nearly as much as perceptions - and frankly, they're going to be aimed squarely against you. You may do none of those things, but that doesn't mean people won't assume you do. I'm not telling you it's acceptable, that I like it, but that's what I've seen in a lot of cases.

I am prepared, to expect the "BS" from the guys, but if I can perform, and do things without complaining, slacking etc. Then I believe through that, you can gain respect. It may take longer etc.

I am hoping since I have mostly dealt with males in Army Cadets and in general as I have more male friends than female. I will be able to deal with some of the harping.

I can show them that I:

1) Do not take any BS.
2) I am prepared to not slack,depend or pull out the female card.

But I respect what you have to say, and I thank you for your opinion.

Cadets and the military are nothing like each other, at all. I'm not going to tell you not to go for it - if it's what you want and you've done your homework - but I think everyone here just wants to make sure you have the most realistic expectations. You're looking at joining what is one of the last "all boys clubs" around. It's admirable that you're willing to go for it, but just make sure you get as much perspective as possible.

Oh, and don't put much stock in anything recruiters tell you.

 

[Scott]

I don't see why the two have to be mutually exclusive. Do work or don't complain if people don't take you seriously.
Also I'm not sure where he implied that guys spending hours in a gym was in efforts to raise the bar for females ???

Exactly my point. It's not a thing for the guys, so do not make it into one.

I look at it lie golf - you're playing against one person: the standards. Motivation is fine but I have seen it cross the line into being a chip on the shoulder, for both genders, and that never wins friends.

 

[Jarnhamar]

I don't see why the two have to be mutually exclusive. Do work or don't complain if people don't take you seriously.
Also I'm not sure where he implied that guys spending hours in a gym was in efforts to raise the bar for females ???

Uhh, what?

 

[ttlbmg]

My interpretation, when reading that statement was that folks in the infantry are, generally, in working out a bit. Not sure if their intention is to "raise the bar" for anyone. From what I am reading, I think was the person was getting at was that don't just be in good shape for a girl; be in excellent shape period if you are planning on joining the infantry. It is a physically demanding trade. I think sometimes it gets a bad rap though for being a boy's club. Some of the most accepting people I have met have been in the infantry!

 

[RyaeC]

Thank you everyone for your advice, I am going to continue to work on my Physical Fitness, and go further that to just be "fit for a girl".

I try to work out everyday, depending on work schedule (I am a manager, so hours for me are everywhere).

I will continue to strive to better than my personal expectations. I want to be ready for BMQ, I do not want it to be 10 times harder because I was unprepared. I would rather be more fit, and healthy and still find it challenging, than to get there unprepared, and be struggling to keep up.

I am definitely, taking everyone's advice here, as you all have been through it, and your advice is more valid than anyone else.

Thank you. I am glad there is a forum like this one, as it is a great tool. 

 

[Mushroom]

Umm, why not make it a whole exceed standards for the good of the job/self thingermerbober rather than exceed the standard just so you can show the guys you mean business? Guys do not spend "hours a day" working out just to further raise the bar for you...

I was not implying that these men are spending hours a day in the gym in order to raise the bar for women, but more often than not these men are spending hours a day in the gym working on there own personal fitness which means they are most likely exceeding the male standard and she should as well try and exceed this standard to show them that she can do this, by which I mean her job, from day 1.  She will no doubt run into more problems if she already uses her gender to her advantage by passing the pt test meeting only the female standard.

 

[Scott]

Yeah, thanks for that. It was a statement of my own.

 

[Mushroom]

Based on something I had said that you misunderstood and I wanted to clarify

 

[Scott]

Guess you should have been more clear at the outset :nod:

 

[daftandbarmy]

Thank you everyone for your advice, I am going to continue to work on my Physical Fitness, and go further that to just be "fit for a girl".

I try to work out everyday, depending on work schedule (I am a manager, so hours for me are everywhere).

I will continue to strive to better than my personal expectations. I want to be ready for BMQ, I do not want it to be 10 times harder because I was unprepared. I would rather be more fit, and healthy and still find it challenging, than to get there unprepared, and be struggling to keep up.

I am definitely, taking everyone's advice here, as you all have been through it, and your advice is more valid than anyone else.

Thank you. I am glad there is a forum like this one, as it is a great tool. 

Hey, if you want to be in the infantry, why be so nice and reasonable?  ;D