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Wearing of GCS & GSM

gate_guard said:
-Pte Smith does a tour in CM, 3 months in he is transferred to KAF and completes his tour. He initially qualified for the GSM but then qualified for the GCS. Is he entitled to both at this point? I would think not. He gets the GCS and that's it.

That'd be like the guys that got the 2 medals since they were involved in the K to K move... Same tour, same country, just different parts that qualify for 2 medals. Now it was a SWASM and a GCS, but I believe the principle is the same.
 
PuckChaser said:
That'd be like the guys that got the 2 medals since they were involved in the K to K move... Same tour, same country, just different parts that qualify for 2 medals. Now it was a SWASM and a GCS, but I believe the principle is the same.

At the time (as I understood it) we received both medals as the tour in Kabul was under ISAF but the remainder of the tour in Kandahar fell under OEF.  If you look at the link in Blackadder's post, it clearly states:

Medals eligibility is based on nature of the service and chain of command. There are currently two main groups in South-West Asia:

1. All those serving under the NATO-led ISAF qualify for the ISAF bar either the General Campaign Star (GCS) or General Service Medal (GSM); and

2. All others, serving with the wider campaign against terrorism (OP ENDURING FREEDOM), qualify for the South-West Asia Service Medal (SWASM).

I agree with the others who are saying that if Pte Bloggins got a GCM for service in CM and then did another tour for which he received the GCS, he should be entitled to wear both.
 
You all have your opinions, unfortunately the ground truth is that you cannot wear both.  If you are wearing both for the same Op i.e. ISAF, and since it seems no one is policing the issue, it is up to you to be honest and take your GSM down.  If I were to go with your arguments above what is to stop me from putting up 3 SWASMs (other than the Sgt Major and good taste)?  I have been in the AOR 3 times with 3 different missions and with 3 different mandates.  The GCS and the GSM are basically the same medal, only one is awarded for being in the AOR, while the other is for direct support to the mission.  It seems to me that those who are arguing the most vehemently just want to maintain their medal count.  It's not about the jewelery folks! but, I imagine most of you know that.

Cheers,
 
I emailed an MWO at  DHR and got the response I didn't want to read...  Looks like I will have to take down my GSM.
If anyone wants to see the attachment, PM me and I'll send it to you.


Here is the email chain:

Good day MCpl,

Below you will find the references and the explanation for not being authorized to "Wear" both the GCS and GSM for the same Operation.

Refs: A. General Campaign Star and General Service Medal Regulations (attached)
B. CANFORGEN 092/04 dated 7 July 04
C. CANFORGEN 094/04 dated 7 July 04


Canadian Honours Policy precludes dual recognition so one cannot wear two medals for the same mission/op. Notwithstanding the fact that we differentiate between sp (GSM) and svc in theatre (GCS), it remains svc with the same op, in this case with ISAF. Both svc at CM and in theatre (again since 31 Jul 06) are with ISAF. The Cdn op names are quite irrelevant in these matters. Our medals recognize "participation in" an op/mission so if a person served both in sp and in theatre for the same mission, the GCS recognizes all that person's participation in the op. Issuing two medals for svc with the same op would contravene Canadian policy and the Order in Council and would therefore be illegal. Fol the same logic, it would be very strange and quite illogical for a member to wear two medals for one tour in sp and one tour in theatre while pers who have served two or more tours in theatre can only wear the GCS, the member would have more medals for having been less exposed.

Service creditable toward the General Campaign Star (GCS) takes precedence over service creditable toward General Service Medal (GSM), and IAW Ref A, Para 11(2) and Ref B para 8, a member may not be awarded both medals for service on the same operation.

Where a member qualifies for award of GCS subsequent to being presented the GSM for the same operation (read with the same bar), he/she is required to relinquish the GSM before auth to wear GCS shall be granted.  For pers in theatre, we have an arrangement by which we issue GCS for presentation in theatre but the GCS/GSM desk clerk at the same time advises the home unit that upon return, the mbr shall return the GSM and then should be followed up DH&R to ensure this is done.




-----Original Message-----
From: @CMP DH&R@Ottawa-Hull 
Sent: Wednesday, 01 October, 2008 10:22
To: @CMP DH&R@Ottawa-Hull
Subject: FW: GSM & GCS Issue




Please answer the MCpl's question on policy.  Also it might be wise to contact the CFJSR RSM and explain the policy to him.  I have a feeling many soldiers at the CFJSR are wearing both the GSM and GCS.



-----Original Message-----
From: @CFJSR RHQ@Kingston 
Sent: Wednesday, 01 October, 2008 09:57
To: @CMP DH&R@Ottawa-Hull
Subject: GSM & GCS Issue

Good morning Sir.

I wanted to inquire about an issue that has come up on various occasions since my return from Afghanistan.

I was on tour in Camp Mirage on Op Athena Roto 3 in '04, and was awarded the GSM with ISAF bar.  In '07 I was at the KPRT on Op Athena Roto 4 where I was awarded the GCS with ISAF bar.  I proudly wear both.

Within the last year, Once on Remembrance Day and a few times on course, I have been questioned no less than three times why I was wearing both.  I have been told that I should have surrendered the GSM prior to receiving the GCS, and have been told stories of other personnel who had to do this.  I have raised the question with various personnel within my CoC, and have been told that I could wear them both, and in the past there was some confusion with the initial documentation, but all that was sorted out now.  I have not seen any documentation support my CoC's position, in fact, all documentation I have found points in the other direction.

Well the issue has risen again, and I would like to have a definitive answer one way or the other.

I would appreciate your assistance in this matter.


MCpl

Canadian Forces Joint Signal Regiment
CSN:
Commercial: 613-541-5010
Email: @forces.gc.ca



 
Oh no...  it is all about the medals.....and the tour pay...and the HLTA...and killing terrorists..mom, apple pie and country have no place in it at all. :)
 
Canadian Honours Policy precludes dual recognition so one cannot wear two medals for the same mission/op.

Hmmmm, what about the CPSM?  Isn't that medal a direct contradiction of that policy (I know the matter was discussed when it first came out, but since it is related to this discussion, I thought I would bring it up).
 
I can't say I agree with DHR but it does make sense. It isn't about medal hoarding (I wear the "2 fer 1" NATO/CPSM on my chest and think it's kind of ridiculous when I explain to people that I got both for the same tour) but recognizing service. As I understood it, the CPSM was in recognition of all UN peacekeepers receiving the Nobel Peace Prize in 1988. Well I was under a NATO mandate, not UN, so figure that one out.

WRT GCS/GSM, I think they should at least be awarding numerals as per NATO medals. Kinda odd for some guy who's done three tours to KAF only wearing one medal on his chest.
 
gate_guard said:
I can't say I agree with DHR but it does make sense. It isn't about medal hoarding (I wear the "2 fer 1" NATO/CPSM on my chest and think it's kind of ridiculous when I explain to people that I got both for the same tour) but recognizing service. As I understood it, the CPSM was in recognition of all UN peacekeepers receiving the Nobel Peace Prize in 1988. Well I was under a NATO mandate, not UN, so figure that one out.

WRT GCS/GSM, I think they should at least be awarding numerals as per NATO medals. Kinda odd for some guy who's done three tours to KAF only wearing one medal on his chest.

Interesting.  I was under the impression that IFOR, SFOR and KFOR were not entitled to the CPSM.

However........ If you had a UN Tour (anywhere) prior to those NATO Tours, you would still get the CPSM.  You may have thought that you got it for a NATO Tour, but it was for a previous UN Tour that you may have been on.  As I don't know what you have in that regards, I can only guess.
 
Interesting.  I was under the impression that IFOR, SFOR and KFOR were not entitled to the CPSM.

From the DHH site - Missions eligible for CPSM

KFOR/NATO [Multinational peace force - Kosovo (KFOR)] (Federal Republic of Yugoslavia) (December 1998 - April 1999) [Op KINETIC]

SFOR/NATO [Stabilization Force in Bosnia-Herzegovina] (12 January 1996 - ) [Op PALLADIUM, Op JOINT GUARD (NATO designation replaced by Op JOINT FORCE), Op JOINT FORCE (NATO designation for SFOR), Op JOINT FORGE, Op PERCHERON, Op MONARCH, Op BRONZE]

IFOR/NATO [Implementation Force] Balkans (20 December 1995 - 1996) [Op ALLIANCE- Op RESOLUTE]

http://hr.ottawa-hull.mil.ca/dhr-ddhr/chart/eng/eligibility/cpsm_eligible_e.asp

cheers, FDL  :cdn:
 
gate_guard said:
. . .  As I understood it, the CPSM was in recognition of all UN peacekeepers receiving the Nobel Peace Prize in 1988. Well I was under a NATO mandate, not UN, so figure that one out.

While the Nobel Peace Prize in 1988 may have been an impetus for development of the CPSM, its creation can be traced just as much as a follow-up to the Canadian Volunteer Service Medal for Korea (CVSMK) which in turn has some ancestry (justification) in the Canadian Volunteer Service Medal which was created and issued during WW2. A major part of the argument for the CVSMK (which was authorized in 1991) was that the medals awarded for Korean service were all from an entity other than this country (i.e. UN or Commonwealth/British), none were uniquely Canadian so the argument was that "Canada" had not recognized the service of its citizens in that conflict.  The same argument was used for the CPSM;  the medals awarded for UN and NATO peacekeeping tours (and of a few other organizations) were developed and issued by those organizations, not by Canada.  The CPSM is Canada's recognition for those tours plus other odd bits of accumulated service that did not meet the criteria for any other medal.
 
While the Korea War medal is of British/Commonwealth design, it is unique in that it has the word "Canada" on the reverse bottom of the medal. 
I think we need someone to take a look at the medals in Canada and come up something a little more consistant with our history. 
 
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