Voluntary Occupational Transfer ( VOT )

[andrewkw08]

Hello,

I just finished all my paper work for the AVOTP. Your CoC is only responsible for one thing in the end of it all. That is there is a section "Part 5" where they write you up about your goals, achievements and recommendations. (This is so that your CO can see if you are fit), as this person probably has no idea who you are. After all the paperwork is done and signed, it is up to your clerks or the coordination cell to hand the paperwork up through the CO, he signs it off and hands it to your BPSO. From there the board meets and decides. I was told by my BPSO they meet in Jan and will have an offer between then and end of April. If you do not receive an offer you will not hear until middle of May at the latest..It is a long and strenuous process with many people handing your life. Either way though talk to the BPSO's assistant. They have all the latest information and are usually pretty helpful. Anymore questions just ask away, I have become pretty pro-efficient at this.

 

[jlv031]

Thanks for your reply but I'm aware of all this. I have been preparing my OT for a year now and I read all caforgens/cfao's about it.
My concern is if I am successful and Ottawa makes me an offer, Im afraid that I won't get the message in time to reply because I am on parental leave and my CoC is not very happy to loose personnel!
I would like to know if there is a contact in Ottawa I can talked to in March just to know if a message is coming. That way I could pit some pressure on my CoC so I don't get screwed.

 

[andrewkw08]

Ah alright. Well in a perfect world your CoC would contact you when the message is received, but....That doesn't always happen. Just keep an update by contacting your CoC or even your clerks(To the respectable rank). Another thing you can do is talk to your BPSO's assistant(through email or phone). Get that phone number or email if you don't already have it. Keep an update with them to as they would have your papers and would send them back out to your CoC once the offer is on the table. If neither of these people are willing to be helpful and you have exhausted these two resources then file a grievance. That should be the very last step and it usually kicks things into gear.

If you don't have the BPSOs assistants number give me a msg to where you are located. I have a very helpful BPSO out here that would have no issue finding that number and I can msg it back.

 

[jlv031]

I have my pso's number ! Thanks for your help I will keep contact for sure with my chief clerk and call every day near and of march haha.

Good day!

 

[UnwiseCritic]

Probably a stupid question(s)... Is clearence diver an ot that's open to all trades? Or do you still need to be a ships diver or combat diver first? And is it what Csor is like now in regards to it being a trade but still requiring a selection process. I'veonly recently discovered that clearence diver is an occupation in the CAF, but I'm infantry and it appears my opportunity to go navy is gone for some time. So crossing my fingers for it being open to all trades. If not and anyone has advice in how abouts an infanteer can pursue this, send me a pm. Thanks.

 

[jlv031]

Can't wait for the offers to come in march!! I saw my file is in D Mil 7 on EMMA so first part is done! Anyone else waiting ?

 

[Evancai]

You can change trades after you complete BMQ and your contract for the trade you signed on for, right.

Ex: You apply for say.... infantry. And you go to St. Jean, graduate from BMQ, go to your trade training in Wainwright (or else where). After your 1st contract is up, can you apply for say combat engineer? And if so, how long does it take? Does it depend of certain things?

 

[Eye In The Sky]

Yes you can *apply*.  Hold on a few and I'll post some details.

First, a few references:

A.  BTAGs (Basic Training List Administrative Guide); and

B.  CFAO 11-12, Occupation Transfers NCM - Reg Force. 

1.  The first question/part is "has mbr completed QL3 training".  If answer is "no" or "partially", go to 2.  If answer is yes, go to 3.

2.  This comes from Ref A, BTAGs.  Basically it states that if a member has not began QL3, they can request a VOR (Voluntary Occupation Reassignment) or VOT (Voluntary Occupation Transfer).  If the mbr has began QL3 training, and is more than 25% complete but less than 75% complete, they can also request a VOR/VOT (whatever it is called...1 of the 2).  Note - VOR/VOT is referred to as a MOC Reassignment in Ref B, CFAO 11-12.

3.  Mbr has already completed QL3 training and is now "occupationally qualified" (not necessarily at OFP - Operationally Functional Point).  IAW Ref B, CFAO 11-12 a NCM who is in a Combat Arms trade can request a VOT once they have completed 36 months of service, have a QL4 qualification and meet the other entry criteria for their desired trade (CFAT, education, medical requirements, etc).  CFAO 11-12 also states that Pte's can request VOT.

For all the nitty-gritty details, you should get a copy of the applic ref to read/understand.  Also, go thru the 2013 CANFORGEN and find the AVOTP message.  Can't recall the CANFORGEN but a "find" on the 13 CANFORGENs using VOT should nail it quick.

* there is a draft DAOD that should soon be replacing CFAO 11-12 and even the BTAGs IIRC.  It should be a 5002 series DAOD and will change the rules some on COT/COR and VOT for NCMs; example "OFP" will be the balance point for COR/VOT and "initial MOC training".  However, portions of the draft DAOD are making their way into the VOT processes now; if you look at the 2013 VOT CANFORGEN, ref A is CFAO 11-12.  There is ZERO mention of "OFP" in the CFAO, but the first few para's of the CANFORGEN use OFP as the point in trg a NCM must be at to VOT. 

From a pure policy perspective, this doesn't jive.  Until CFAO 11-12 is properly superceded, it is the authoritive reference/policy for NCM Reg Force OTs and MOC Reassignment (this has been tested already in atleast one case I know of and CFAO 11-12 was deemed the correct policy).

 

[Pusser]

Yes, you can apply, but don't count on being successful.  It's actually a little bit easier for Army combat arms occupations (e.g. infantry) because there is an actual program for that.  HOWEVER, it is by no means guaranteed and the CF career model is not overly accepting of the concept.  You're not really rewarded for changing occupations and in some cases, you can actually be quasi-penalized (e.g. you can go down in rank).  Furthermore, the CF invests a lot of money in training you in a particular occupation and wants its pound of flesh!

My advice to you is if you accept an offer of enrolment, be prepared to work in that occupation for the duration of your career.  Again, yes it is possible to change, and many do, but it can be a lengthy process and not all applications are successful.

 

[Eye In The Sky]

Yes, you can apply, but don't count on being successful.  It's actually a little bit easier for Army combat arms occupations (e.g. infantry) because there is an actual program for that.  HOWEVER, it is by no means guaranteed and the CF career model is not overly accepting of the concept.  You're not really rewarded for changing occupations and in some cases, you can actually be quasi-penalized (e.g. you can go down in rank).  Furthermore, the CF invests a lot of money in training you in a particular occupation and wants its pound of flesh!

My advice to you is if you accept an offer of enrolment, be prepared to work in that occupation for the duration of your career.  Again, yes it is possible to change, and many do, but it can be a lengthy process and not all applications are successful.

I'm not sure I can agree with the part in yellow;  if you VOT as a MCpl or above, you must agree to relinquish your rank and go back to Cpl (A/L) but do so voluntarily.  Any other case of drop of rank would be because of inefficiency and would be a COT for that reason.  I'd like to think the ineffective mbr didn't make it to MCpl or Sgt before their CofC realized they couldn't teach a dog to bark.  ;D

 

[Pusser]

I'm not sure I can agree with the part in yellow;  if you VOT as a MCpl or above, you must agree to relinquish your rank and go back to Cpl (A/L) but do so voluntarily.  Any other case of drop of rank would be because of inefficiency and would be a COT for that reason.  I'd like to think the ineffective mbr didn't make it to MCpl or Sgt before their CofC realized they couldn't teach a dog to bark.  ;D

 

[Pusser]

I'm not sure I can agree with the part in yellow;  if you VOT as a MCpl or above, you must agree to relinquish your rank and go back to Cpl (A/L) but do so voluntarily.  Any other case of drop of rank would be because of inefficiency and would be a COT for that reason.  I'd like to think the ineffective mbr didn't make it to MCpl or Sgt before their CofC realized they couldn't teach a dog to bark.  ;D

What I meant was that even if you relinquish your rank voluntarily in order to VOT, it still kind of sucks, especially if it means changing messes.  I had a MCpl working for me once who had been a Sgt in the infantry until his VOT.  He got over it and I think he was happier in his new occupation, but I still think it must have been tough to leave the Sgts and WOs and go back to the JRs Mess.

 

[Eye In The Sky]

It was. 

 

[nteeps]

So, I've got quite the complicated situation: I am currently a pilot waiting to start my training under the CEOTP AEAD entrance program. This means that I am a commissioned 2 Lt with no degree. I have completed BMOQ and that's it for my military training.

After spending some time at 408 THS on OJT, it seems to me that all pilots do their whole careers is update their qualifications and study for things. Personally, I did the CEOTP program because I'm not a huge fan of school, so the idea of doing what basically looks like school for my career no longer sounds very appealing, and with all the cutbacks, it seems like most pilots are just reaching their yearly minimums for hours. I also realized during BMOQ that I kinda enjoyed the lack of comfort in the field, and I'd never enjoyed anything more than when I got to lead a group of people on a mission. This has got me to thinking about being an infantry officer. I am aware that they also do paperwork, but is it at all the same as what pilots are doing? Is studying and constant re-certifications also part of the job?

What I'd like to know is this:

1. Is a VOT possible in my situation? Considering I don't have a degree under my belt, ROTP or CEOTP would likely be my only options (short of releasing and getting one myself). Is CEOTP an option for infantry officers? I haven't seen anything to say otherwise. If I did make the transfer, would I lose my commission and be demoted to an O.Cdt again until I got my degree?

2. If someone could manage a guess, how much more physical/hands on would infantry officer be than a pilot while in garrison? How often do you go to the field? I know some administrative stuff is actually helping your platoon in a pretty upfront way with their financial, family or legal problems. How much does that happen? And how much more time would a pilot be away from home than combat arms?

I understand that these are hard things to give generic answers to, but any help would be really appreciated.

 

[George Wallace]

......... Personally, I did the CEOTP program because I'm not a huge fan of school, so the idea of doing what basically looks like school for my career no longer sounds very appealing,

You want to hear the bad news?  You're going to get it anyway.  In the CAF, officers and NCMs both spend a lot of time on courses, in class, studying.  There is no escaping it. 

 

[nteeps]

I'm aware of that, but obviously some trades have more of that than others, and it seems as though pilots get a whole lot of that kind of stuff. I'm asking if someone can compare that to infantry officers. I don't mind learning things, I'm not a tard, but what pilots do seems particularly school-ish, and I'm sure it's not like that in every trade.

 

[Ostrozac]

Two points from me:

First, an infantry officer that is actually in an infantry battalion does usually get to spend significant time in the field doing the job with the troops. But by the last estimate I saw, only about 25% of the infantry officer MOSID were actually posted on strength of one of the nine battalions. The other 75% of infantry officers were busy being staff officers, instructing, and administrating. So by a very rough order of magnitude, an infantry officer can expect to spend three quarters of his career doing something other than being in an infantry battalion. Being the G5 of a brigade can be very satisfying work -- but it's not the same experience as being a platoon commander.

Second, except for Pilots, no one is really looking for CEOTP right now. Overall officer enrolment is down, retention is up, and the various occupation managers are waking up to the fact that all these CEOTP officers floating around the system don't have degrees, aren't promotable to Major, and that the plan to have them do night school courses out of their rucksacks in Kabul and Wainwright was probably a really stupid idea. The SIP forecast for CEOTP hires in the future is very, very grim. I think that some MOSIDs might be closed to CEOTP hire for quite a while -- maybe a decade.

 

[nteeps]

Thanks, that's helpful information. What kind of instructing are you talking about? Do you mean different courses? Would that not be very similar to field work? What about after you do a tour away from a battalion and potentially come back as a Captain or Major, what type of role would you play? You would still deploy to the field, no? Would you still take part in exercises etc?

I'm kinda aware that CEOTP isn't the greatest entry option, so I'm also open to ROTP.

Any more information anyone can throw out there for me would be amazing. I know its a somewhat unique situation, but if anyone has gone through something similar I would love to hear what happened.

Thanks.

 

[nteeps]

I just found this on another topic:

BTL Officers – after BMOQ. May apply at any time after completion of BMOQ and prior to completion of occupation training. May only request from the monthly reassignment list and may be limited out of understrength occupations;

What is the monthly reassignment list, and where could I find this? I'm assuming the fact that I don't have my degree would further complicate this, but it's worth looking into. Can anyone expand on this?

 

[Eye In The Sky]

For that you will have to talk to a BPSO/PSO staff.  It is not published on the DIN anymore.

The good thing is while you are there, you can talk to them for official CAF answers on this as they are the SMEs. 

Just to add, the 'idea' of an Infantry Officer might seem cool and all, but just be aware that your experience(s) in Farhnam don't necessarily line up with the real life of an Infantry platoon leader, etc.

Despite your end choice, my last :2c: is that either path will require a lot of hard work.

Good luck!