VAdm Norman - Supply Ship contract: Legal fight

[vonGarvin]

I've been out of the country for a few years and am just following this quite peripherally. 


Something is quite rotten

 

[Kirkhill]

On the plus side - all the nicknames seem to make CanForNaCode redundant.

Confusion to the Enemy!

 

[ModlrMike]

Her reputation and performance in court would seem to be divergent.

 

[Rifleman62]

Note that: Henein is bringing an abuse-of-process motion, saying she can’t properly defend Norman (who still hasn’t been able to access his own emails) in these circumstances. That will be heard the week of March 25.

 

[Retired AF Guy]

Funny isn't the word I would use.

Maybe I'm falling for some kind of conspiracy theory or a cleverly worded defense but just what I'm reading in this thread the government and DND sure aren't coming across as honest and transparent to me.

If you read the above Hill Times article you will also find out that Astravas is also a life long Liberal. Just saying.

 

[Rifleman62]

Astravas, who testified Thursday at a pre-trial hearing in Norman’s breach of trust case, struggled to remember the names of her own staff or her interactions with two other key members in Trudeau’s office, principal secretary Gerald Butts and chief of staff Katie Telford.

Astravas’s poor memory for a period hardly lost in the mists of time — her most frequent response was easily “I don’t recall”....

......contents of dormant email accounts of political staff (Astravas is political staff) to be "wiped" after six months.

Astravas is described by someone who knew her well that she is a ""nose-to-the- grindstone, don’t-miss-a-detail, don’t-drop-a-thing worker"

If you read the above Hill Times article you will also find out that Astravas is also a life long Liberal.

Quote from: YZT580 on January 30, 2019, 16:33:44
And you can be certain that those two will tell the truth the whole truth and nothing but the truth.  right?

JesseWZ post in reply to YZT580: Despite any political misgivings people may have, I would expect senior public servants to *not* commit perjury.

If and when they do testify, if there are allegations such as the one above, I expect they will enjoy the same presumption of innocence the rest of us, VAdm Norman included, enjoy.

You are dealing with the LPC in this matter.  What a track record they have. The PM's track record is not stellar.

https://www.liberal.ca/openness-and-transparency/

OPENNESS. TRANSPARENCY. FAIRNESS. MAKING GOVERNMENT WORK FOR CANADIANS.


The Star - 27 Mar 17

In the words of one Liberal campaign document, “Under Stephen Harper, the government (grew) secretive and closed-off from Canadians.” Justin Trudeau promised something better, “a sweeping agenda for change” premised on “a simple idea: transparent government is good government.”

 

[FSTO]

I really wonder that when this all happened back in the day that the PMO honestly thought that they'd cancel the contract, there would be about a day of chatter on the media and then that would be it. Therefore they didn't really give this whole matter much thought and it wasn't seared into their memory banks.

Then the story got out about cancelling and Quebec and the head of the RCN refused to play ball and the government had to let the contract contine.
That should have been the end of it.

So now the PMO has egg on its face very early in their mandate and due to their over inflated ego they now needed someone to toss under the bus over this egregious leaking of sacrosanct cabinet confidentiality (something that is a regular occurrence in Ottawa) and a military man was just the person. Name him, he'll quietly resign and the PMO will have their pound of flesh.
The PMO would then dust off their hands and congratulate each other how smart they are and that should have been the end of it.

But then their fall guy decided that his reputation was more important than a golden handshake and he threw a spanner into their cunning plan. On top of it he's hired a shark who seems to enjoy making Crown Prosecutors squirm.

So now the PMO and their fall guy are in court and all sizes of dust rhinos are emerging from under the carpet. Now we are getting the Canadian version of "Pleading the Fifth" as the PMO's cunning plan is spinning more and more out of control.

But this PMO (like all PMO's) thinks it can still control the narrative and they'll emerge as the good guys in all of this. I think we are beyond the point where the government admits defeat apologizes to VAdm Norman and carries on. They still have time for this all to blow over and be totally forgotten by election day. If they don't then this affair will continue to fester like the Duffy debacle.

 

[Rifleman62]

An excellent comment by a military Vet on the situation posted in the NP:

Odd that we are prepared to accept hundreds of years of native oral history, recollections allowed to have a major impact on Canada. However, we are not prepared to accept the memory based oral recollections of recent ‘histories’ by our own officials. Not saying we should. Just observing on the contradictory approaches we always seem so willing to adopt as we dig the hole deeper and deeper for ourselves with the ‘Canadian values’ shovel. Is there any wonder we are reaching societal paralysis?

 

[daftandbarmy]

There is maybe nothing to read into this.  I don't imagine many GOFO have time to spectate a court case in the middle of working hours and, since this whole court case is highly politicized, I would not be surprised if GOFO have been advised to just stay away and not be seen around the trial.

There's a reason the Thursday toast is 'A long war and a sickly season'

 

[FSTO]

There's a reason the Thursday toast is 'A long war and a sickly season'

A bloody war or sickly season.

 

[daftandbarmy]

A bloody war or sickly season.

Spot the Army guy (me)

 

[Navy_Pete]

It doesn't stop someone in Ottawa from taking a vacation day and showing up in civilian dress and letting Norman see you, to let him know that you are there for him.

The naval officer's mess is around the corner from the courtroom.  Stopped by one day for a prepaid lunch on Thursday and it was packed with brass, and just happened to coincide with one of the VAdm's day in court, who stopped by as well.  No one is really shy about showing support, just not publicly while in uniform. If you have seen the news clips there have been a few times where there was a crowd of people with suspiciously upright posture in suits milling around when he's gone to court.

I think the whole thing is a farce and continues to go terribly wrong for the GoC.  Wonder how many times the council has tried to get this dropped but been kicked back to the grindstone by the political masters.

If you are curious, take a read over the CVs of the lawyer's at Heneinen's firm; they are all high flyers with some pretty serious academic backgrounds that also have some bona fides on getting things done in big cases.  In comparison I always get the impression the GoC lawyers are the well meaning theorists that would do okay in a teaching environment but you wouldn't want to have defending you (if you could afford better).

 

[Colin Parkinson]

I have met one or two litigators from DOJ that have impressed me, but I being highly underwhelmed by our DOJ legal team over the years. 

 

[Navy_Pete]

I've only ever dealt with them on contract issues, but for the most part they lack business acumen and common sense (with a few exceptions).

In this case probably tough to come out as seeming competent, if you are going in with both hands tied behind your back and the big giant heads having outlandish expectations.  Not even releasing him his own notes is a pretty cunning plan, and can just feel the judge facepalming their way through the government arguments.

 

[OldSolduer]

“Big giant heads “. That is funny.

 

[dapaterson]

 

[Halifax Tar]

Shipyard at heat of Norman trial received secret cabinet documents in error

Shipyard at heart of Norman trial received secret cabinet documents in error
https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/davie-shipyard-mark-norman-supply-ship-1.5005733

 

[OldSolduer]

Shipyard at heat of Norman trial received secret cabinet documents in error

Shipyard at heart of Norman trial received secret cabinet documents in error
https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/davie-shipyard-mark-norman-supply-ship-1.5005733

Perhaps FJAG can weigh in on this. This, in my opinion, casts doubt on the competency of the department doing the contracting and weakens a case that is weak to begin with.

 

[Cloud Cover]

Unfortunately the competency of the department is not what at issue in the criminal trial of VADM Norman. The sole question is did he disclose confidential information without lawful excuse or authority. 

Although there's no doubt that the DoJ is shooting its own foot off with all this foolishness over ATIP and Crown disclosure, and that might even result in a finding of a breach of procedural fairness for the accused  and he may in fact not be convicted on that basis (because certain evidence may be excluded), that does not mean that he did not commit the act.

All the intrigue, incompetence, political masturbating, bureaucratic fetishes and ancillary legal squabbling aside, the truth must come out. Among the many questions that have to be answered and accounted for by many people, at the end of the day for the good of the few shreds of confidence and trust from the main body of the armed forces remaining in their own leadership, it needs to be established as fact whether the former VCDS did or did not commit the crime for which he is accused. There can be no grey area about this. The  :rules: apply to everyone.

 

[FSTO]

Unfortunately the competency of the department is not what at issue in the criminal trial of VADM Norman. The sole question is did he disclose confidential information without lawful excuse or authority. 

Although there's no doubt that the DoJ is shooting its own foot off with all this foolishness over ATIP and Crown disclosure, and that might even result in a finding of a breach of procedural fairness for the accused  and he may in fact not be convicted on that basis (because certain evidence may be excluded), that does not mean that he did not commit the act.

All the intrigue, incompetence, political masturbating, bureaucratic fetishes and ancillary legal squabbling aside, the truth must come out. Among the many questions that have to be answered and accounted for by many people, at the end of the day for the good of the few shreds of confidence and trust from the main body of the armed forces remaining in their own leadership, it needs to be established as fact whether the former VCDS did or did not commit the crime for which he is accused. There can be no grey area about this. The  :rules: apply to everyone.

Did he disclose anything? Or did he hear from second hand information that the government was looking at cancelling the contract. Also why is James Cudmore not being questioned? He broke the story. Did he receive info from Norman? Or from the young staffer who actually had the brief?