UNAUTHORIZED DISPOSAL OF COMBAT UNIFORMS AND EQUIPMENT
- Thread starter John Nayduk
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I too am a bit shocked that a Canadian "International Military Consultant" [on weapons at that!!] is not familiar with the Defence Production Act.
That would be an act he should be most familiar with --- given his details of background/work that's he's stated here.
That would be an act he should be most familiar with --- given his details of background/work that's he's stated here.
Recon 3690
Jr. Member
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pre 9-11, my grandfather was born in S. Dakota, my father in N. Dakota and I have spent 90% of my civilian career working in the US, my legal status in the US is my business. I taught NBCW, weapons repair etc. I also worked at CFB Suffield on DRES project Swift Sure which in involved the destruction on stored WW 1 chemical Weapons, which was brought to the attention of my friends commander by them. As ex-Canadian Military with actual chemical weapons experience I was invited by said unit as an expert "civilian consultant" (my term) for training purposes. And at that time I had a higher military security clearance than you do now I bet. I have stood face to face with Soviet Tanks (ask George Wallace about the stand to in 1980 when we sat on the border for 24 hours with live ammo in the tanks) during fall ex in West Germany, I do not know George personally but we were both there at the same time, my troop commander was Lt. Ferron. I am or was qualified on FN C1A1, FN C2, C3A1, C5, C6, Browning 50, C1A1 SMG, Browning HP, M72 LAW, Carl G, and trained as a gunner in the Leopard 1. I held 404s for Leopard 1, Lynx, Cougar, M113, and a wide assortment of wheel vehicles, qualified & operated C42, PRC 77, & RT 524 radio sets including Nestor system. As a Crew Commander I have attended & participated in 4 annual Brigade Int briefings 1 CBG Calgary. I have done my time. And lack of kit was just as severe back then I remember the RCR trialed the DPM Mk II & we wore thread bare combats because they had canceled production of the ODs gearing up to produce the DPMs until politicians cancelled the program just prior to acceptance, 1981 I believe. Is there anything else you would like to know or is this good?
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Sorry, but talk is cheap and only time will tell.
I am professional enough not to discuss my current valid security clearance.
Mate many of us have taught CBR, are current SMEs and instructed within our trades, or/and leadership/recruit schools, thats nothing special, just another tick in the box.
Being qualified on a sniper rifle and 'just having a shot' are two different kettles of fish.
That Soviet tank story is quite a yarn, and with all my TI as a CF Mbr (1976-1995), the first time I heard of this is now. I really can't see a bunch of CF tanks stopping the Soviet onslaught into western Europe.
As for me, like many of us, I've been on recent active service (not the same definition as the US - it means warlike service), and had a few close calls. It was not a middle eastern holiday or a Reforger exercise. You're not taking to some pencil necked safety geek.
I am not aware that any MOC 011s were snipers unless they were retreads from a 031 past.
It was a C1 SMG, no amendments to that weapon.
You ar talking to a former '031' and an armourer.
WRT the DPM of c.1981, I had a set, genuine at that. They were contracted for Tanzania in Africa. I got pics of their troops wearing them.
I had never seen a genuine/real shortage of see-thru OG107s.
In that era, most soldiers were current on their pers wpns and some crew served, and DFSWs (Direct Fire Support Weapons, such as the 84 and 66)- it was within their trade to do so, nothing special about that either.
I would hope as a 011 you were current on these, as this would be a mininum standard for the RCAC. Crew served weapons are the bread and butter of any armoured corps.
Many of us too have been coursed up on various tracked and wheeled AFVs, and have comms courses.
Like I say, talk is cheap, and time will tell, but I am not the only one who is suspicious.
Regards,
OWDU
I am professional enough not to discuss my current valid security clearance.
Mate many of us have taught CBR, are current SMEs and instructed within our trades, or/and leadership/recruit schools, thats nothing special, just another tick in the box.
Being qualified on a sniper rifle and 'just having a shot' are two different kettles of fish.
That Soviet tank story is quite a yarn, and with all my TI as a CF Mbr (1976-1995), the first time I heard of this is now. I really can't see a bunch of CF tanks stopping the Soviet onslaught into western Europe.
As for me, like many of us, I've been on recent active service (not the same definition as the US - it means warlike service), and had a few close calls. It was not a middle eastern holiday or a Reforger exercise. You're not taking to some pencil necked safety geek.
I am not aware that any MOC 011s were snipers unless they were retreads from a 031 past.
It was a C1 SMG, no amendments to that weapon.
You ar talking to a former '031' and an armourer.
WRT the DPM of c.1981, I had a set, genuine at that. They were contracted for Tanzania in Africa. I got pics of their troops wearing them.
I had never seen a genuine/real shortage of see-thru OG107s.
In that era, most soldiers were current on their pers wpns and some crew served, and DFSWs (Direct Fire Support Weapons, such as the 84 and 66)- it was within their trade to do so, nothing special about that either.
I would hope as a 011 you were current on these, as this would be a mininum standard for the RCAC. Crew served weapons are the bread and butter of any armoured corps.
Many of us too have been coursed up on various tracked and wheeled AFVs, and have comms courses.
Like I say, talk is cheap, and time will tell, but I am not the only one who is suspicious.
Regards,
OWDU
Recon 3690
Jr. Member
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I would have got back sooner I was reading Defence Production Act which is for the most part a procurement act for production, maintaining, & purchasing of defense equipment from industry which lists exemption's to controlled goods list for above said procurement only 2 items are listed prohibited weapons (as defined by the criminal code) item 2001 and ammunition above 12.7 mm item 2003 all other item numbers in the schedule are unassigned and appear to be at the discretion of the Minister of Defence as per previous sections of the act. It also tends to support this post
The fact is only DND regulations call this a controlled item not the DPA or other part of Canadian Law, The DPA covers industry and DND uses it to beat them over the heads to stop them from manufacturing commercially which would reduce overall unit costs. Which would get you more kit for the same money or lower tax dollars committed. Industry is threatened with loss of production licences & exemptions if they don't comply ie. Parklands a past major supplier to CAF. And yes I am presently offended. I have observed while reading thousands of post the last few weeks that whenever someone says something some of you regular users don't like you verbally attack them and question their credibility a user that seemed to be a military lawyer said you were wrong you ignore that, you ignore cited evidence and just prattle on like nothing has occurred at all. If possession was illegal Mr. Collicutt would have been immediately charged and his CADPAT stocks seized as evidence, they would not have requested he return it or tried to trade him future goods as per the Edmonton Journal article cited. As for PMing Overwatch I have no need I will publicly state my resume' minus some areas that involve the interests of other individuals I have been associated with or company's I have non disclosure agreements with. In conclusion try to understand the examples you cite look at thing logically and engage in intelligent debate.
Vern how many people have been actually charged for possession of CADPAT textiles? Try reading and understanding the whole instead of picking small pieces as justification for your pet peeve. As for tactical security seeCEL said:
Semper Fi MattMatt_Fisher said:
The fact is only DND regulations call this a controlled item not the DPA or other part of Canadian Law, The DPA covers industry and DND uses it to beat them over the heads to stop them from manufacturing commercially which would reduce overall unit costs. Which would get you more kit for the same money or lower tax dollars committed. Industry is threatened with loss of production licences & exemptions if they don't comply ie. Parklands a past major supplier to CAF. And yes I am presently offended. I have observed while reading thousands of post the last few weeks that whenever someone says something some of you regular users don't like you verbally attack them and question their credibility a user that seemed to be a military lawyer said you were wrong you ignore that, you ignore cited evidence and just prattle on like nothing has occurred at all. If possession was illegal Mr. Collicutt would have been immediately charged and his CADPAT stocks seized as evidence, they would not have requested he return it or tried to trade him future goods as per the Edmonton Journal article cited. As for PMing Overwatch I have no need I will publicly state my resume' minus some areas that involve the interests of other individuals I have been associated with or company's I have non disclosure agreements with. In conclusion try to understand the examples you cite look at thing logically and engage in intelligent debate.
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This thread WILL NOT get turned into some sort of personal pissing contest. If someone has a substantiated allegation, not a gut feeling, they can take it to the Staff for disclosure and action. Finally, and once again, credentials go a long way to establish credibility, but they are not a requirement of this forum in order to participate.
Milnet.ca Staff
Milnet.ca Staff
Recon 3690
Jr. Member
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I said faced, not engaged don't ask the reason I do not know them after 24 hrs live ammo was returned & we were reissued blanks & returned to the ex. I said qualified on the weapon not a trained sniper. You questioned my credibility and I answered you as now I am answering your questions. I do not question your stated experience or extra national service I take it with a degree of faith and except it. If you reread some of your own posts on this thread they support some of my points. Military Police can not arrest civilians and the RCMP are not interested (this CADPAT debate has been going on for 10 years since Crown Assets released the trials stuff to surplus) they have already investigated more then once & to my knowledge not seized 1 piece of CADPAT from a surplus store or individual. I deal with surplus stores in both Canada & the US all the time I would know if any of them I know had been charged. You seen it all done it all super soldiers make me shake my head The Tanzanian DPM was colored like the jump jackets & went to Tanzania the Trials stuff was NATO DPM colored same as the Brits & Dutch were using. My disceased cousin was RCR at that time and my Aunt has a set of his DPM at her home complete with all insignia on it. Un-adopted kit is not carried on any TO&Es have to do a lot of research to find it or believe people that were there.
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Recon 3690 said:
Don't listen very well do you?
Milnet.ca Staff
Recon 3690
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sorry I did not see your 1st message until after I hit the post button.
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Overwatch Downunder said:
User trials were done on combat clothing made from the tropical DPM fabric in Gagetown in the summer of 1979 by an Infantry Officer Phase III course. The tropical fabric was brighter than the temperate version, and stood out against the forest background quite noticeably.
It also had flat breast pockets, as the webbing that had failed its trial the year before (and resurfaced in modified form as the 82 Pattern) had magazine pouches. This was, of course, somewhat of an inconvenience for the wearers.
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Loachman said:
I was aware of new DPM trials in the late 1970s.
The uniform I had was genuine, but differs from the one you have described. It was identically patterned off the OG107 Cdn standard we've all worn, but with the absence of re-inforced rifle mag pouches in the lower pockets on the jacket (AKA shirt), and no velcro enclosure on the inner breast/chest pocket also on the jacket. Similar in DPM on the Cdn 'smock parchutist'. Mine went to a collector in Ontario before my immigration to 'down' here.
Identification and size tags were entirely absent on this uniform, but a small white tag on the inside of the collar was present, sewn in, but blank. This tag was about 1.5 inches square. There was no evidence of a larger tag being removed, and were never sewn in.
Mark C has a set of this stuff too in his rather extensive military uniform collection, and would be completely 'in the know' on its history of this pattern.
Years later in a book I had purchased, I had noticed Tanzanian regular troops, parading in strength, marching with AKM rifles, wearing these 'Cdn' uniforms.
I must find that book (its here somewhere), and scan some pics.
Regards,
OWDU
EDIT: See pics below. These are recent, and it look like the Tanzanians are still using the '107' pat DPMs.
daftandbarmy
Army.ca Dinosaur
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Loachman said:
And, as I recall, we Phase IIs thought they were really cool until the sleeves started to fall off. Or, did they get pulled off during the combat crud games?
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Although the Tanzanians continue to use that same pattern of DPM uniform, there are some marked differences between what they initially used in the 1970s vs. what they're currently using now.
We had a Tanzanian officer stop by the shop in Fredericton as part of the international staff officer's course that is run out of Aldershot, so I had a quick once-over of his uniform: The pocket layouts is still very similar to the CF combats, however the buttons are no longer the 'slotted' style, and the fabric is more of a twill, rather than the 'Combat Cloth' which the initial batch were done in.
We had a Tanzanian officer stop by the shop in Fredericton as part of the international staff officer's course that is run out of Aldershot, so I had a quick once-over of his uniform: The pocket layouts is still very similar to the CF combats, however the buttons are no longer the 'slotted' style, and the fabric is more of a twill, rather than the 'Combat Cloth' which the initial batch were done in.
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Overwatch Downunder said:
I have a set of that stuff, too - exactly as described. They flooded surplus shops in the mid-seventies. The same manufacturer put out an OG version as well. I do not believe that any were ever intended to be issued, and that thye were made for commercial sale only. I cannot recall the name of the manufacturer.
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OWDU,
That photograph in a book you mentioned, of Tanzanian troops parading in DPM combats. Was it perhaps a pic in the National Geographic? I remember being extremely surprised to see it at the time, because it was obviously Cdn pattern.
That photograph in a book you mentioned, of Tanzanian troops parading in DPM combats. Was it perhaps a pic in the National Geographic? I remember being extremely surprised to see it at the time, because it was obviously Cdn pattern.
- Reaction score
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I think that the Tanzanians got the DPM version of our uniform before the current slotted small buttons became standard for us - the original Canadian combat uniform had regular four-hole sewn on buttons except for the larger slotted type on the pockets.
The DPM commercial combat clothing knock-offs first came out with a commercial sewn-on small button as well. It was not the original official style, though, but flatter with a raised rounded edge. I bought one of those shirts with the intent of replacing the buttons, but bought second one when the revised version appeared.
I'm pretty sure that the Tanzanians were wearing the DPM version of our combat clothing long before these commercial ones became available.
The Tanzanian uniforms also appeared in an old mercenary movie. It may have been Dark of the Sun, but I am not certain.
The DPM commercial combat clothing knock-offs first came out with a commercial sewn-on small button as well. It was not the original official style, though, but flatter with a raised rounded edge. I bought one of those shirts with the intent of replacing the buttons, but bought second one when the revised version appeared.
I'm pretty sure that the Tanzanians were wearing the DPM version of our combat clothing long before these commercial ones became available.
The Tanzanian uniforms also appeared in an old mercenary movie. It may have been Dark of the Sun, but I am not certain.
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Loachman said:
I wish I could find that pic!!
On the version I had, the small standard buttons on the pockets of the jacket and trousers (even on the belt loops) were the modern slotted type, and were identical to what was on the OG107s a la early 80's.
Perhaps there was a mixture of aftermarket and ealier, 'TZ' DPM 107 patt at one time?
Regards,
Wes
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