Two children killed after car nears Canadian convoy

[stegner]

You would might not make the best soldier, but you would appear to have all the makings of a good poliitican.  Grin

Or a bureaucrat I hope! 

Enjoy the tropics.

 

[Fusaki]

Not trying to do that.  They did the best with the tools that they were given.   Just trying to think of different tools that could be used in the future to prevent events like this from happening again.   

LAV Gunners take these kinds of situations very seriously and they put alot of thought into their convoy SOPs. No one wants to kill kids and innocents - every one of us knows that we will live with the choices that we make on the roads in Kandahar. But the point at which warning shots turn into lethal force is a grey area, with each situation dependant on the circumstances. It's impossible to armchair this one.

In fall 06 I was a LAV gunner involved in a convoy op in southern Afghanistan. At one point a vehicle pulled out and began speeding towards us, and I fired my COAX in accordance with ROEs. When the dust cleared the battle aiming mark on my daysight was sitting right in the middle of some kid's head as I looked through the windshield at him sitting on the driver's lap. The driver decided to stop just in time, and I checked fire just in time. No one was hurt, but I was seriously pissed off. How the frig could the driver have been so stupid? Risking his life and his family's life like that? Doesn't he know that this game is for keeps? If the timing had been a half second off I would have wasted every single ******* person in that car. And I would have had to live with that.

In the early spring 07 another car was speeding towards us. He got the drop on us, and the ****** exploded himself on the side of my LAV. No one was hurt thankfully, aside from the suicide bomber. But what if someone was hurt? Maybe I should have been just a split second quicker on the trigger. frig, I don't know.

These are the decisions made every day by our guys in Afghanistan and it pisses me off to see this crap armchaired. Guys do enough second guessing of their own actions. They don't need john smith on army.ca or on the CBC adding to it.

Sorry for the vent. This one hits close to home.

 

[Fishbone Jones]

.....and the same people that are bitching about us shooting are the same ones that are bitching when we suggest non lethal pulsating laser lights. :

It seems thay really don't want us to succeed.

 

[TCBF]

Not trying to do that.  They did the best with the tools that they were given.   Just trying to think of different tools that could be used in the future to prevent events like this from happening again. 

- Good thinking, and you are not alone: there are all sorts of 'boffins' out there trying to develop non-lethal tools to replace some of the lethals in some of the situations.  But, as in 1914-1918 and 1939-1945, technology lags behind the need.

- Necessity is the mother of invention: in the meantime, we do the best with what we have.

 

[fire_guy686]

I see the usual suspects are out and about posting on the CBC site.  : I used to try and post there and have just given up. No matter what you say they never take anything into consideration.

 

[KevinB]

25mm  ???  Appropriate means for an appropriate threat (part of the EOF and ROE) maybe if a BMP had been lumbering at them.

Green Lasers - In use by US forces here, and they work -- the high power ones (as opposed to PX specials - which even still are bright - but not the same) They cause immediate discomfort and nasuea and temporary blindness -- its a great tool, and needs to be in the CF inventory.

Vehicle disabling techniques -- best start at 100m
100-75m Vehicle Strobes and directed Ligth and Laser, flares as well
75-50m (also depend on vehicle speed) 2nd Flare
<50m aimed shots - into vehicle start with engine - then into passenger compartment if driver still fails to stop.

I have own problems with the "bubble" mentality - as one can easily park vehicles by the side of the road or swerve into an oncoming convoy - and their is nothing your bubble can do.  Mingling with traffic does expose you to problems - but it also is a shield, and the PR/ hearts and minds is a great deal better.

The more you isolate yourself from the populace the more you become an crusading infidel.

FYI the US Army now mingles in traffic in the majority of areas here, after learning the bubble culture was hindering efforts.

 

[The Bread Guy]

.....and the same people that are bitching about us shooting are the same ones that are bitching when we suggest non lethal pulsating laser lights. :

It seems thay really don't want us to succeed.

On!!!!

 

[vonGarvin]

Why not put a couple of 5.56mm or 7.62mm rounds through the engine or tires instead of 25mm through the windshield?   Can convoys not deploy some spike belts to slow down cars?         

Slow down.  Who, other than a reporter, said that it was a 25mm?  Honestly, at 10 metres, the kinetic energy from a training round would have done more than what was reported.
You weren't there.  Neither was I.  If t here is an investigation, then so be it.  Otherwise, speculation and such questioning is useless.

 

[Jammer]

Agreed with MR.
My crew used to, and will again in the near future have an ample supply of water bottles to ward off those who don't read or seem to understand pictograms.
There are a myriad of factors that may have (or not) have come into play here, unfortunately TTP OPSEC prevent me from going into detail. Those here who have already been in this situation will already know this. 

 

[Scoobie Newbie]

Jammer halfway through TF 3-06 water bottles were disallowed.

Rolling convoy's and spike strips are not practical.

 

[The Bread Guy]

I see the usual suspects are out and about posting on the CBC site.  : I used to try and post there and have just given up. No matter what you say they never take anything into consideration.

If there's any comfort to be taken here, when looking at the comments, try clicking on the "Sort by Most recommended" button - some of the more reasonable responses climb to the top.  When I last checked (10:02am), it was six pro-troops/mission vs. four anti-troops/mission in the top ten - don't be shy about dropping by and making recommendations of your own.

 

[3rdroyal]

Father Doesn't Understand Why Troops Opened Fire

Josh Pringle
Tuesday, July 29, 2008 on CFRA News

"The father of two Afghan children accidentally killed by Canadian soldiers acknowledges the driver of his car may have made mistakes.
But Ruzi Mohammed tells the Globe and Mail Canadian soldiers should have been able to prevent the incident from happening given their advanced technology.
Canadian troops opened fire on the car after it got too close to their convoy in Kandahar province. A two-year-old boy and a four-year-old girl were killed.
Mohammed suggests the fact the car had five people should have told the Canadian soldiers the vehicle was not a threat.
The Canadian Forces plan to offer compensation to the family.

Soldiers told The Canadian Press they flashed the lights on their vehicles, made hand gestures and issued audio warnings for the car to pull over."

Lets be honest with each other, the moron driving the car didn't listen and now 2 kids are dead. When a car is driving at you and not heeding the multiple warnings it is given, it IS a threat.The only technology available to tell if there are explosives are even weapons in an oncoming vehicle is the Mark I eyeball.  Im sick of the media making us look like the bad guys, when we are trying to help these people. Im sick of hearing joe civvy's opinion about something he knows sweet f*** all about. Its frustrating, GROIN GRABBINGLY frustrating.

 

[Jammer]

Jammer halfway through TF 3-06 water bottles were disallowed.

Rolling convoy's and spike strips are not practical.

I know...I was there.
However...that being said I found it to be a more effective deterrent than warning shots when you were confident you we dealing with just a guy who was impatient.

 

[The Bread Guy]

Let's see, so far, the Globe & Mail says:

Noor Mohammed, a distant relative of the victims who lives in Kandahar city, said the driver knew that road intimately because he commuted every day from his home in Chalghowr village to work at a shop in the city that sold spare parts for vehicles.  The family believes that the driver tried to stop before reaching the Canadian vehicles but got nervous and stamped his foot on the wrong pedal, the relative said.  "The driver was confused," he said. "He put his foot on the accelerator instead of the brake."

Canadian Press says:

The father was also a passenger in the vehicle. He was being treated for lacerations but left the Kandahar city hospital without permission to attend his children's funeral ....  Staff at the Kandahar hospital said the children's father, Rozi Khan, suffered minor injuries. The children's mother and the driver of the car were not injured.

And the most recent CBC.ca,  National Post, Reuters and AFP coverage I've found has no quotes from anyone in the car or anyone who's dealt with anyone in the car.

Dopey question, here - has any MSM asked either the father or the driver why the car didn't stop?

Anyone?  Anyone? Bueller? Anyone?

 

[stegner]

The soldiers used hand signals, flashing lights and sirens in a futile attempt to warn the car away.

From http://www.canada.com/calgaryherald/news/story.html?id=535792c2-0dc2-4c79-80fb-63344cc7e988

Are there pre-recorded warnings in several dialects that could be played over some speakers as convoys travel? 

 

[Greymatters]

Dopey question, here - has any MSM asked either the father or the driver why the car didn't stop?
Anyone?  Anyone? Bueller? Anyone? 

This was my first thought after reading the article.

Contrary to popular opinion about people in less-developed countries, local inhabitants in Afghanistan are not morons.  Basic survival taught them long ago 'if its dangerous, avoid it'.  As soldiers we've seen this in many foreign countries, where the mere sight of a gun made civilians melt away and not want to talk with us.  This concept was in place long before we got there, and we've been there going on six years.  There's no need for 'public warning campaigns' other than a CYA visibility for the folks back home.  Every citizen in that country, young and old, knows by word of mouth that you should not approach a foreign infidel unless you clearly demonstrate your purpose. 

So now we have a person refusing to acknowledge signals to stay away, and even more perplexing, knowingly risking the lives of his children in doing so.  And then afterwards 'relatives' being quite forward with foreign news crews about how wronged he was. 

Nope, nothing suspicious here, move along folks, move along...

 

[darmil]

We use spot lights to blind drivers and i acquired pen flare kits from an American.

 

[Scoobie Newbie]

I know...I was there.
However...that being said I found it to be a more effective deterrent than warning shots when you were confident you we dealing with just a guy who was impatient.

Agreed

 

[KevinB]

On BigRed's and I old contract that company had a somewhat prolific shooting that killed two women in a car.  The women panicked and the guys applied the ROE...

  Sadly it happens.

Despite what you think, in Afghan and Iraq, people are used to guns, and you have to remember it is their country - they are trying to get along with life, sometime mistakes are made when they are trying to get along with their life.

 

[OldSolduer]

Events of this nature will happen. It's unfortunate, and I am sorry that family lost two chidren.

The average person on the street has been be-dazzled by the media and Hollywood into believing that only bad people and soldiers get killed in wars. We use euphemisms such as "collateral damage" as if children and people are buildings or cars. It shoud be called what it is....an unfortunate turn of events in which the one party made a very serious error.