Two children killed after car nears Canadian convoy

[ENGINEERS WIFE]

Hind sight is always 20/20.  It is easy to second guess what shoulda, coulda, woulda have been done.  War is made up of spit second life and death situations. Sometimes the right decision is not easy one.  No normal person wants to harm a child.  
It is extremely unfortunate when when an innocent child dies, especially when that is not the intent of why Canadians troops are over there.  But, if the bonehead driving had just obeyed the rules, this wouldn't even be an issue.  And the soldier that had to make that life or death decision will probably not be sleeping very well tonight. My heart goes out to him/her.
But, I for one, am glad that he/she and his/her buddies will be coming home and that I won't have to be making another trip down to the Highway of Heroes.  
Sometimes life is not fair.
May the children rest in peace and the Canadian troops come home safe and sound.

 

[muskrat89]

I have to wonder if it was done on purpose. There is as much propaganda value in this as a suicide bomb. Add the psyops value as well. We know the enemy is not above sacrificing innocents to achieve their aims.

 

[Good2Golf]

Interesting details in the article...it was the family and a driver, the driver not being the father as many first assumed.  Hypothetically, if the driver was an insurgent who was prepared to die anyway, whether to probe the coalition defences with a "recce" drive by, or conduct a VBIED attack, then having the family in the car would strengthen the Taliban IO plan in a relatively simple manner.  Still hypothetically, the family might have though the driver was a friend who could be trusted.  All hypothetical, but you have to consider that this is one of many possibilities that the gunners in the convoy would have to deal with...armchair quarterbacking from a warm anchor desk or livingroom or House of Commons is far easier than making life or death decisions with a sea of ROE and factors and directives swimming around in a soldier's mind with, in many cases, fractions of a second to react.

I find this a particularly interesting view by the ANP officer in the hospital...at least some one said it.

The police officer who saw the children's mother crying in the hospital said foreigners aren't the only ones to blame for civilian deaths.

"They're not killing civilians in Kabul. Why is that?" Abdul Karim asked rhetorically. "They don't kill them in Kabul because there is peace there. Here, (soldiers) are scared."

 

[GAP]

I have to wonder if it was done on purpose. There is as much propaganda value in this as a suicide bomb. Add the psyops value as well. We know the enemy is not above sacrificing innocents to achieve their aims.

Just go for a drive....with the idiots we have on our roads here, do you think Afghanistan is going to be better?

This one I would chalk up to stupidity....

 

[mr.rhtuner]

These 'threats' shouldn't be tolerated at all...



"Another hospital visitor said that if he were the children's father, he would personally strap on a suicide vest and exact vengeance on Canadian troops.

Shopkeeper Din Mohammad said foreign soldiers had better stop accidentally killing civilians or they will suffer the same fate as the defeated Soviets.

"Otherwise the day will come when everybody will stand up against the foreigners in a holy war - a jihad."

"It's happened once before (with the Soviets). If things continue like this, history will repeat itself."


really, all we are doing is trying to clean up that obstruction of a country and we get threats for it? I understand the accident scenerio...BUT follow the rules = you won't get attacked.

 

[Good2Golf]

I'd be keeping a close eye on the driver's actions from now on.......

 

[1feral1]

These 'threats' shouldn't be tolerated at all...



"Another hospital visitor said that if he were the children's father, he would personally strap on a suicide vest and exact vengeance on Canadian troops.

Shopkeeper Din Mohammad said foreign soldiers had better stop accidentally killing civilians or they will suffer the same fate as the defeated Soviets.

"Otherwise the day will come when everybody will stand up against the foreigners in a holy war - a jihad."

"It's happened once before (with the Soviets). If things continue like this, history will repeat itself."

Hello fellow friends of army.ca

Sadly thats the mentality of many of these 'ancient' cultures, an eye for an eye, in the most barbaric way. Many cannot see the good that gets done, and when a tragic event happens, we get the blame, and we are condemmed for defending ourselves by such outragous comments, and looked down upon by many.

I am not suprised.

One day this war is going to end, and nothing will change from 1879, to 1979, to 2009. Afghanistan will always be what it is, and IMHO, thats a corrupt primitive cruel tribal society, steeped in violence with revenge, with customs and traditions we, as westerners will not totally understand.

Regards,

OWDU

 

[xena]

Ultimately it'll come down to a paradigm shift of realizing there is no "us and them", but only "us".  As long as we imagine that there is a set of "others" that we can blame, we will continue to blame, and fight, and seek revenge.  Much like this Dad is doing.  There's more bravery in forgiving a wrong done to you than there is in seeking revenge.  Don't get me wrong, I've got nothing against defending those who need it, nor against preventing horrible people from committing atrocities, but seeking revenge is a totally different issue.

 

[stegner]

Why not put a couple of 5.56mm or 7.62mm rounds through the engine or tires instead of 25mm through the windshield?  Can convoys not deploy some spike belts to slow down cars?       

 

[Dog Walker]

CTV has a piece on the shootings featuring a military analyst by the name of Mercedes Stephenson. She seems to have a better grasp of military matters than most of the TV experts, and gets her message across in a clear and concise manner.

http://watch.ctv.ca/news/latest/children-killed/#clip70066

 

[HItorMiss]

Can convoys not deploy some spike belts to slow down cars?         

Are you serious  ???

As for the 25mm I hav no idea whythat was fired, generaly it would/should have been the coax or pintol mount...That being said however I will not second guess the actions of the gunner or the Crew Commander they were the guys on the ground and they made the call. Had they made the wrong one perhaps the news would read " X Canadian soldiers killed in car bombing"

I for one feel bad for the kids but them is the breaks....

 

[GAP]

CTV has a piece on the shootings featuring a military analyst by the name of Mercedes Stephenson. She seems to have a better grasp of military matters than most of the TV experts, and gets her message across in a clear and concise manner.

http://watch.ctv.ca/news/latest/children-killed/#clip70066

You're right...she's clear, consise and accurate...a pleasant change...

edited to add: watching CBC coverage now, and they, while being accurate, are sure playing up the issue of turning Afghan civilians against the Canadians if these accidents continue.....like, soldiers we know you didn't mean it, but God....get it right!!

 

[1feral1]

Why not put a couple of 5.56mm or 7.62mm rounds through the engine or tires instead of 25mm through the windshield?   Can convoys not deploy some spike belts to slow down cars?         

Dear Kind Sir, and Academic of Academia ( as so worded in your profile),

Can you please enlighten us by telling how you would go to a stowage container, then get out of a moving armoured vehicle say at 50Kph, then set up and deploy a spike belt when a suspect vehicle is gaining speed on you, all under less than 100metres, when you have a matter of a few seconds, if that?

Shooting engine blocks eh, humm, I want to stop the driver from blowing us (and me) up by KILLING him, so to do a hit and miss on radiators and engine blocks could cost me and others our lives. You can't fight, yetalone win a war by being Mr Political Correct.  The whole vehicle is going to get peppered, with particular attention to the driver and occupants.

Perhaps if I may be so polite and kind by suggesting you stick to your area of expertise.


Warm regards,

OWDU.

 

[Love793]

"Another hospital visitor said that if he were the children's father, he would personally strap on a suicide vest and exact vengeance on Canadian troops.

Shopkeeper Din Mohammad said foreign soldiers had better stop accidentally killing civilians or they will suffer the same fate as the defeated Soviets.

"Otherwise the day will come when everybody will stand up against the foreigners in a holy war - a jihad."

"It's happened once before (with the Soviets). If things continue like this, history will repeat itself."

Is it just me, or do these comments seem a little, shall we say doctored? Not trying to sound like some conspiracy nut, but I'd really like to see the actual translation, not the the Liberal/NDP media outlets translation.

 

[Trinity]

Is this not a situation where using Dazzlers would have saved lives??? 

http://www.canada.com/theprovince/news/story.html?id=57794810-30c5-43b6-a148-3acbb64f853f

 

[yak]

The RAF around KAF will bounce a pencil flare off your windshield if they don't like the way you're acting, if they have the chance.

But I'm not second guessing the actions that cost those kids their lives.  Not from the other side of the planet.

 

[stegner]

Overwatch Downunder,

Who says you have to get out of the LAV? Please see this site http://www.mobiledeploymentsystems.com/.  Suffice to say one can deploy a spike belt from the comfort of the drivers seat. 

I realize that being political correct does not always win wars, but neither do tragic events such as these.  I feel for the soldier who pressed the trigger as this individual would most likely give almost anything for the car to be filled with terrorists rather than a family.  Thus, I think that the CF really needs to reevaluate its communications with the Afghani population with respect to convoys .  Flashing lights and signs where many folks are illiterate are not ideal-the oral communications also seem to be not ideal either.    The current policies are not fair for those in the convoys or the Afghanis that travel by them.  Perhaps, technology is a partial solution, something like this might be helpful http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/2006-12-19-translators_x.htm.  Another technological solution might be buying a device to send a EMP pulse to the offending car frying the car and any electronics connected to explosives therein. 

 

[Franko]

Why not put a couple of 5.56mm or 7.62mm rounds through the engine or tires instead of 25mm through the windshield? 

Stegner,

Try asking yourself this if you only have about 5 seconds to live....

Can convoys not deploy some spike belts to slow down cars?

That's what the warning gestures and signs are for....followed by bullets.

Apparently the "laser dazzlers" are too inhumane for the infamous Rideau Institute Trinity.      

Again troops, the locals know the rules and avoid convoys. This guy didn't and the kids, sadly enough, suffered the consequences.

Don't second guess the troops that were there.

As for EMPs....they fry everything in the area.

Regards

 

[stegner]

Don't second guess the troops that were there.

Not trying to do that.  They did the best with the tools that they were given.  Just trying to think of different tools that could be used in the future to prevent events like this from happening again. 

 

[1feral1]

Overwatch Downunder,

Who says you have to get out of the LAV? Please see this site http://www.mobiledeploymentsystems.com/.   Suffice to say one can deploy a spike belt from the comfort of the drivers seat. 

I realize that being political correct does not always win wars, but neither do tragic events such as these.  I feel for the soldier who pressed the trigger as this individual would most likely give almost anything for the car to be filled with terrorists rather than a family.   Thus, I think that the CF really needs to reevaluate its communications with the Afghani population with respect to convoys .  Flashing lights and signs where many folks are illiterate are not ideal-the oral communications also seem to be not ideal either.    The current policies are not fair for those in the convoys or the Afghanis that travel by them.   Perhaps, technology is a partial solution, something like this might be helpful http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/2006-12-19-translators_x.htm.   Another technological solution might be buying a device to send a EMP pulse to the offending car frying the car and any electronics connected to explosives therein. 

Kind Sir, and Gentleman

Like I said, stick to your area of expertise, you don't have a clue in the reailty of what goes on, shy of media releases and INet gadgetry. In the real world, things are not so warm and fuzzy. However, I do like the bit "Thus, I think that the CF really needs to reevaluate its communications with the Afghani population with respect to convoys .  Flashing lights and signs where many folks are illiterate are not ideal-the oral communications also seem to be not ideal either." That nearly sent me into spasms alone.

You would might not make the best soldier, but you would appear to have all the makings of a good politican.  ;D

Humble regards from the tropics,

OWDU