Troops carrying pistols outside the gate

[LordOsborne]

I mange to shoot pistols despite my army training, doing IPSC or IDPA is still better than no training, but as I-6 says it's not a cure for idiots.

I agree with you on that, Colin. I think (and i know) that the training i got at CFSAC was light years ahead of some of the prior training i had received. On more than one (CF) range, we set our second magazine on the grass by our feet, and did our mag changes by placing our empty one next to the loaded mag, picking the loaded one up, standing up before releasing the slide lock and continuing to fire...

Edited to clarify a point.

 

[zipperhead_cop]

Now, whether or not that's a true story, i don't know. but it does jive with what i read about re: the cops who stopped to pick up their brass in the middle of a gunfight.

There are some unfortunate stories with regards to police shooting, but that sounds like just about the stupidest thing I have heard before.  There is nothing about identifying a threat that would cause a officer to put his hands up.  If it had happened, we would have heard about it.

Like the guy who taught me on my holster/defensive shooting course - "Slow is smooth, and smooth is fast."

My own favorite is "Speed is fine, but accuracy is final"

 

[KevinB]

ZC a fan of Larry Vickers? 



 

 

[OldSolduer]

you fight the way you're trained,,,,am I correct?

 

[dangerboy]

A bit off topic but it reminds me of a time on the 84 range when instead of counting to 60 they went 1,2, 58, 59, 60 like they did during there classes the safety staff was not amused.

 

[OldSolduer]

HA Dangerboy!!!!

 

[AirCanuck]

Reminds me of a book I read by a guy who's ex-SAS, still shouts out his drills when he gets a stoppage (CHECK! etc) even in a firefight.  Obviously less than a deadly habit, but seems along the same lines.

 

[NL_engineer]

A bit off topic but it reminds me of a time on the 84 range when instead of counting to 60 they went 1,2, 58, 59, 60 like they did during there classes the safety staff was not amused.

If that was one of my troops, I make them count the whole thing during training. 

But it just goes to show, some people haven't been issued common sense  : and there is none left in the system :

 

[Fishbone Jones]

Common sense is that one valuable commodity that everyone thinks they have too much of, and no one else has enough of.

It also seems to be spoken of only when there is a distinct lack of it's supposed qualities, and presence. No one is ever praised for having it, only besmirched for not having it.

Ergo, if it isn't tangible and proven, it doesn't exist ;D


OK, too many beers and time for bed :blotto:

 

[AirCanuck]

wow are we really getting into an existentialist discussion about common sense in the military?

It's true though.  We do certainly seem to be out of stock.

 

[OldSolduer]

"It's true though.  We do certainly seem to be out of stock."
No we are not out of stock of common sense,,,,we just have to stop giving authority to people who don't have any.
What were we talking about anyhow.....oh pistols, wpns drills etc...bit of a tangent here. Sorry.
The pistol is another weapon of war,,,,and the troops,,,,all should master it.

 

[MG34]

IPSC and IDPA are poor training devices unless you are wearing full deployment kit (armor,vest/chest rig,etc) and moving in a tactical manner,both teach too many bad habits .IPSC in particular is terrible for forming poor tactics, and the scenarios are unrealistic . IDPA is better but both are just games not training.

 

[LordOsborne]

MG34,
I agree with what you said. I know IPSC has become more of a race than anything else, since shooters are allowed to fire ammunition that is loaded to reduce recoil, not to mention use their "raceguns" like 5000$ uber-modified 1911s with a holosight on top. IDPA as I understand it is a stock-only competition.

CFSAC rules insisted that all shooters wore full kit, except for casual events like the walkback. I even wore my gasmask carrier (something I haven't done since CAP) on my right hand side, facing backwards, just so I could wear my dump pouch in the right place.

I should add that having a dump pouch was one of the best things to have at CFSAC. Pistol matches could run through all 5 magazines, and any magazines left on the ground when the time was over counted as a penalty, so it gave me a great chance to practise my reloading drills

 

[medaid]

I found loading while not using cover or concealment to be counter productive in IPSC. Ever since then, I haven't done it again. We need tactical shooting courses that are accessible up here in Canada instead of having to go down to the States or bring US instructors up here all the time. I know MG teaches, but you're so damn far away from me. Not to mention the transportation of the firearms are a pain, and seriously for us to be training with 5 rnd or 10 rnd mags are just ridiculous...

 

[MG34]

MG34,
I agree with what you said. I know IPSC has become more of a race than anything else, since shooters are allowed to fire ammunition that is loaded to reduce recoil, not to mention use their "raceguns" like 5000$ uber-modified 1911s with a holosight on top. IDPA as I understand it is a stock-only competition.

CFSAC rules insisted that all shooters wore full kit, except for casual events like the walkback. I even wore my gasmask carrier (something I haven't done since CAP) on my right hand side, facing backwards, just so I could wear my dump pouch in the right place.

I should add that having a dump pouch was one of the best things to have at CFSAC. Pistol matches could run through all 5 magazines, and any magazines left on the ground when the time was over counted as a penalty, so it gave me a great chance to practise my reloading drills

CFSAC unless there has been major changes recently as some idiotic safety rules that negate any training benefits, for example no long rifle is carried, no transitions are done with a live rifle,and so on. Simply put the CF has never taken the pistol seriously as a weapon, it is pretty much an ornament (status symbol) or a conveniant means of being somewhat armed when a rifle is "too inconveniant".

 

[OldSolduer]

Hi MG34...like when clerks say I got a pistol so I could lock up my C7? Ain't it the truth

 

[westie47]

They should NOT use IDPA/IPSC as a guide. These are games like MG has said.  The military needs to conduct training on how to FIGHT with a pistol. Full stop. Same as the rifle.
If they can't come up with a course/instructors within the military, then contract out.  We already do that with certain units going south to conduct part of their courses/training as well as the CP course is done down south.

It is not uncommon within the US Army/Marines to find civilian contractors teaching pistol/rifle courses. In fact some companies only teach to LE/mil. John Farnam, Larry Vickers, Jeff Gonzalez are a few that come to mind. They are a travelling roadshow, can design custom training and ensure it's taught the same across the board. Ouside of CANSOFCOM, like Kevin said, we are waaaay behind the curve for tactical shooting, rifle is coming along but pistol is brutal. They have already taken gunfighter and 'dumbed' it down into the PWT4. It went from a 5 day package including sims to 1 or 2 days at the range.

 

[medaid]

I just had the pleasure of leaning a few shooting techniques with a rifle instructor/ trainer for LE/MIL here in Lynden, WA. It was VERY educational.

 

[LordOsborne]

CFSAC unless there has been major changes recently as some idiotic safety rules that negate any training benefits, for example no long rifle is carried, no transitions are done with a live rifle,and so on. Simply put the CF has never taken the pistol seriously as a weapon, it is pretty much an ornament (status symbol) or a conveniant means of being somewhat armed when a rifle is "too inconveniant".

Not all of the CFSAC pistol matches were shot 'pistol-only'. There were about 5 (out of ~30) matches with long rifles. I completely agree with you that transitions should be a major focus of pistol training.

Edited to add the following:

The link I'm providing goes to a video of me doing one of the rifle-to-pistol matches at CFSAC. The match format went like this:

ammunition:  1x 2rd C7 magazine, 5x 9mm magazines

The shooter engages the Fig 12 target with his C7 and two round magazine, encounters a "stoppage", and has to transition to his pistol.
Shooter draws pistol, advances to the low wall, and using cover, engages 3 targets from one side using 2rds per target, and one target from the other side.
Shooter advances to the low window, and using cover (slicing the pie), engages all targets visible through the window.
Shooter then moves to the next window (the targets I engaged earlier are considered 'dead'), engages the rest, and stands up when finished.

Scoring was done using the IPSC brown cardboard targets (ABCD scoring areas), divided by the time to complete the match. Safety infractions, not using cover, and leaving magazines on the ground were time penalties.

I want to mention ahead of time that I know I didn't do all that great   a proper sling would have been nice. I had the issue sling around the delta ring, but it got caught on my tac vest as i tried to push it to my back.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wrIj-KBUkqs

 

[AirCanuck]

I want to mention ahead of time that I know I didn't do all that great Tongue  a proper sling would have been nice. I had the issue sling around the delta ring, but it got caught on my tac vest as i tried to push it to my back.

still, very interesting to see speaking as someone who hasn't seen one of these before.  Thanks for the link!