Troops carrying pistols outside the gate

[medicineman]

Back to the point....IF all the administrative nausea that we inflict upon ourselves can be cleared away by the implementation of my old friend COMMON SENSE...(I'm sure everyone has met him at one time or another) then maybe we could get range time and ammo to train the troops on things like pistol shooting....or am I making too much sense again?

Common sense has been gradually bred out of the gene pool - I think it started as a user trial sometime in the late 70's and started full scale implementation by the mid 80's or so.  In answer to your question, I refer you to the (unofficial) Canadian Civil Service motto: " If it makes sense, we must do the opposite ". 

MM

 

[Greymatters]

I will bite instead of bark tonight... Sort your self out or move on!

Cmon Wes say what you really mean, dont sugar-coat it...  ;D

Not to pile on, but Wanab if you've never been out there you really shouldnt make comments on how useful a pistol is or how a pistol should be used... 

Back to weapons proficiency, it seems like training for use of pistol (at least up until 2005) was arranged along the lines of 'if you arent deploying you dont need to get it every year', but getting a PWT one time before you go outside the country hardly gives one the level of skill needed for proper use of a weapon...

Hmmm, the rest I think tends to mirror what Infidel6 already said...

...unless the TOET's are done in a useful way (i.e. not out of the book) and the ranges are designed to develope shooters instead of checking the box (quite frankly if you cant get HPS in the Pistol PWT your probably deaf, dumb or blind).

 

[geo]

The pistol is just one of our tools and we should always keep our tool skills SHARP.

If you have not seen or handled the pistol for any time beyond a year - your tool skills are BLUNT and you might as well equip yourself with a pickaxe handle for all the good the BHP will provide you.... IMHO

 

[AirCanuck]

So.

It seems we all agree on a few facts...

pistol training is woefully inadequate nowadays..

'trained' or 'current' on a weapon means that you use it on a fairly regular basis, something more than just getting a PWT just before deploying..

What can be done?  Is there anything in the works to remedy this or are we just dreaming of things that may one day be?

 

[ReconWO]

Currently being designed in Kingston,  there is a new program in the works called the Canadian Operational Shooting Program. It will replace the current program and is designed for the progressive training all CF weapons.

Pistol Trg is slowly starting to come back on line and with this new program it will be greatly increased the proficiency of the firer if applied correctly (in other words we don't just complete the parts we like).  However, while deployed a pistol is defiantly a last resort/last chance weapon.  It only makes sense to have one on your person if you have efficiently trained in transition drills from a long gun to the pistol under stressful conditions.  The sad reality is that 60 percent of personnel that carry pistols in TFA never leave the wire and "need" to carry a weapon around camp.  Of those 60 percent maybe 3 percent are truly proficient at utilizing the weapon and probably 20 percent are completely oblivious to to weapons capabilities and limitations let alone proper weapons handling and maintenance.

If we are to continue to give personnel pistols, then we must be willing to take the time, money and effort to train our personnel properly. Not just give them one so they can hang out at Tim's and look cool while sipping an Ice Cap.

 

[Good2Golf]

ReconWO, any chance of getting a mandatory PO added to disassemble and reassemble the BHP blind-folded?  If people can at least do that, they'll be a lot more familiar/confindent with their weapon!

G2G

 

[AirCanuck]

Not just give them one so they can hang out at Tim's and look cool while sipping an Ice Cap.

Quite well put.  The program you mentioned sounds interesting - would that apply to ALL personnel req'd to carry weapons or just combat arms or what?  I am hoping to get a decent amount of small arms training when I eventually get to griffons - speaking of which, what do those blokes carry around anyhow?

As far as a last chance weapon, I am curious - are there situations in close quarters where it is more prudent to carry a pistol than say a C-7?  (Asking out [obvious] of lack of experience)

 

[BLUE GRUNT]

I am hoping to get a decent amount of small arms training when I eventually get to griffons - speaking of which, what do those blokes carry around anyhow?

Well Aircanuck...I can say from experience that you will get a pistol...you might get some C7 training and even fire the occasional C6...this is dependent on unit I suppose ...I can only speak of Edmonton...and you do not receive anywhere near the needed training to consideryourself proficient, unless you have had lots of previous exposure to weapons.

my 2 cents

 

[LordOsborne]

So.

It seems we all agree on a few facts...

pistol training is woefully inadequate nowadays..

'trained' or 'current' on a weapon means that you use it on a fairly regular basis, something more than just getting a PWT just before deploying..

What can be done?  Is there anything in the works to remedy this or are we just dreaming of things that may one day be?

The program ReconWO mentioned sounds very promising, and I hope to benefit from the fruits of that labour sometime soon.

I think that CFSAC might offer a domestic / peacetime opportunity to hone and develop pistol shooting skills. I went last year and was very much out of my league. My experience with the BHP was limited to the actual qualification i did on CAP as well as the annual qual shoot. CFSAC has changed from being an elitist gathering to its new attitude of 'come one, come all'. The emphasis was to generate individual skill to be brought back to the local units in order to regenerate the CF's marksmanship expertise.

Pistol shooting was designed around IDPA matches, involving transitions, using cover, shooting through doors/windows, weak / one handed shooting, el presidente drills and so on. It was dynamic and challenging and i loved every second of it. there were some very friendly civillian defensive pistol coaches on hand who were more than happy to answer questions. Every pistol competitor had to complete the safety course, which taught streamlined, modern pistol technique (think along the lines of 'tap-rack' but for a pistol). I fired more rounds in 30 minutes of the pistol safety course than i had done before. Great training, and I came away with an appreciation for marksmanship and modern training.

 

[westie47]

I've been a bit lucky, on two separate occasions I have been allwoed to run tactical pistol training, unrestricted. The first was at my home unit a couple of years ago. This is before Gunfighter really took off. We were asked for ideas for an upcoming range ex, I put together a plan and presented it.  I took a bunch of drills I had learned through civilian courses and adapted them for army use. We had lots of ammo and the troops loved it, the officers were a little skeptical at first but got right into the training with open minds. I basically ran a version of Fighting Rifle with some pistol stuff thrown in, like transitions, etc.

Then during work-up training last summer with 1VP, I took the whole company's allotment of 9mm for my platoon (the other pl's didn't want it!) We did a whole day of pistol drills, I saw some major improvement but many more days were needed to get proficient. Of course that never happened, but at least every soldier in the platoon had a chance to learn and practise with the pistol.

 

[AirCanuck]

well, i guess those are two hope stories!  Patrick, do you think that the program mentioned be Recon will be anything like what you were running?

 

[Jarnhamar]

Looking at his experience ReconWO is the type of person I'd like to see putting together this pistol/shooting package. 
That said I don't know how many times I've heard the argument "but the tacvest team had an infantry NCO on it!"  I've heard a lot of accounts where the "infantry  input" was just ignored.  I hope the combat arms input isn't overlooked and this package is designed around fighting in Afghanistan and not shooting on a range.

 

[LordOsborne]

well, i guess those are two hope stories!  Patrick, do you think that the program mentioned be Recon will be anything like what you were running?

I hope so, if not better. Keep in mind that the course was run by civillian pistol instructors, and I believe it was geared more towards preparing for an IDPA or IPSC match (not that i find fault with this - i believe the training was top-notch and i certainly gained much from it). I think the fundamentals that were taught were good, but i believe it could have benefitted from a greater focus on the BHP, primary-to-secondary weapon transitions, and running matches without a beeper to re-enforce good training (a beeper and shot clock were used for scoring).

I believe one of the coaches is on the forum now and again, and it'd be nice to hear his opinion.

 

[KevinB]

  Shot Clocks/Timers are useful for some training -- especially to test the individual on a given standard.  However intial training with them is not usually a good idea - since the idea is to get good technique first, and then work on speeding it up -- and going on speed first can cause shooters to try to push past their skill level and can eventually cause training scars and bad muscle memory (like most CF book drills or ranges do already).

 

[Old Ranger]

I foresee a skilled gunslinger traveling the land holding seminars and skills classes for those with scars and bad muscle memory...

Could that help get the CF back up to par?

(Had to add a new tag line on the bottom... ;D, that made my day)

 

[Redeye]

Like the guy who taught me on my holster/defensive shooting course - "Slow is smooth, and smooth is fast."

  Shot Clocks/Timers are useful for some training -- especially to test the individual on a given standard.  However intial training with them is not usually a good idea - since the idea is to get good technique first, and then work on speeding it up -- and going on speed first can cause shooters to try to push past their skill level and can eventually cause training scars and bad muscle memory (like most CF book drills or ranges do already).

 

[LordOsborne]

We were told of a US State Trooper who was very involved with IPSC matches in his spare time. As I understand it, IPSC matches have the shooters stand with their hands over their head, and begin when shooters hear a beep tone from the shot clock.

This trooper was in a convenience store, when a robber came in with a shotgun and held the place up. The trooper apparently immediately put his hands over his head and waited for a beep, since that is what he had practised for so long. The robber wasn't too kind to the trooper, apparently.

Now, whether or not that's a true story, i don't know. but it does jive with what i read about re: the cops who stopped to pick up their brass in the middle of a gunfight.

 

[benny88]

what i read about re: the cops who stopped to pick up their brass in the middle of a gunfight.

  Link, please!

 

[KevinB]

Several books on the issue - some with Loren Christiansen (Lethal Encounters - I think) talk about several of these issues.  In police shootings - which are much more well documented that military shootings, one policeman was found dead after a shooting - empty revolver yet brass was in his pocket -- he had ben trained to dump his brass in his pocket and them reload.  As well as one policeman that shot a suspect after a whistle blast, and one that shot twice and reholsterd and was shot fataly after -- it founf their department qualification has the troopers shoot on the whistle blast - fire two rounds and reholster.

  This is part of the problem when you have (insert more polite word for idiots) running a weapons training program, they dont know what they dont know, and that will get people killed. 

Military shooting is an art - and unfortunate the system of systems people dont view it as useful, so it has not had the same support it used to - and given the current Op tempo and the fact of how much we have learned about fighting with small arms since 911 -- the current setup is criminal

 

 

[Colin Parkinson]

I mange to shoot pistols despite my army training, doing IPSC or IDPA is still better than no training, but as I-6 says it's not a cure for idiots.