Toronto tests response to terrorist attacks
- Thread starter GNR
- Start date
- Reaction score
- 25
- Points
- 430
Why? ??? Why does the CF have to be involved in cases like this?
Many municipalities across the country test their Emergency Response capabilities to scenarios like train derailments, school bus accidents, plane crashes, etc. without any CF involvement. So Toronto has stepped it up a notch and done a test that involves Bio/Radioactive Hazards. Other municipalities have also. They are reacting to the times.
The next thing to say, is that the CF is a "Last Resort" in situations like this. There is a bunch of hoops and checks and balances that have to be gone through (A Chain of Command) in the matter of Aid to the Civil Power. In this case, Toronto was testing its' own resources as 'First Responders' and saw no requirement to go to Provincial and then National resources for help.
Many municipalities across the country test their Emergency Response capabilities to scenarios like train derailments, school bus accidents, plane crashes, etc. without any CF involvement. So Toronto has stepped it up a notch and done a test that involves Bio/Radioactive Hazards. Other municipalities have also. They are reacting to the times.
The next thing to say, is that the CF is a "Last Resort" in situations like this. There is a bunch of hoops and checks and balances that have to be gone through (A Chain of Command) in the matter of Aid to the Civil Power. In this case, Toronto was testing its' own resources as 'First Responders' and saw no requirement to go to Provincial and then National resources for help.
- Reaction score
- 0
- Points
- 110
There are several reasons that the CF should have been involved, I'll highlight a couple.
More exposure of the CF in instances like this would help in recruiting and public opinion.
Using us as a last resort sounds great, IF we are going to help the situation. Unfortunately if we don't practice in cooperative events like this one we will be more of a hinderance than help.
Sadly I think the paperwork involved in including the CF is far too much of a hinderance and therefore we are left out.
More exposure of the CF in instances like this would help in recruiting and public opinion.
Using us as a last resort sounds great, IF we are going to help the situation. Unfortunately if we don't practice in cooperative events like this one we will be more of a hinderance than help.
Sadly I think the paperwork involved in including the CF is far too much of a hinderance and therefore we are left out.
- Reaction score
- 25
- Points
- 430
GNR said:
The CF would not be able to move the required troops to Toronto in time to react effectively with the Toronto authorities. The Exercise would be over before the first troops came anywhere close to being 'on the ground'. (No!....do not even go to the Reserve argument.)
Not true. The CF does do its' own training. It does have people who will go in and work as mediators, coordinators, etc to bridge the gaps between the Civil, Provincial, and Federal organizations.GNR said:
Sorry, but that is the way the system is setup so as the Federal Government is not stepping outside its' Lanes in our Democratic Society. All a matter of Checks and Balances. You should know this.GNR said:
- Reaction score
- 7,368
- Points
- 1,160
I don't know if the CF should have been involved in this drill, or even if is should be involved in emergency planning but one thing I took from the recent Katrina affair is that there is a fundamental problem in planning for these things.
When your house goes up in flames, when you receive a wound that requires more than a bandaid you call for help. Help arrives and the helpers take over command and control. You, in your traumatized, incapacitated state are not expect to help put out the fire or even direct operations. Yet that is exactly the situation that we put local authorities in.
We expect that local authorities, with the best local information, can make the best local decisions. But the very nature of disasters means that the local environment has changed, often beyond recognition. Maps may no longer be useful. Communications are likely to be inactive. Roads, railways, runways and ports, when damaged mean that the locals can't get anywhere to find out where the problems are to fix the "biggest" problems first. The mayor may need to dig herself out of her street before she can find her way to City Hall. Firemen and police, if not dead or trapped at home or in their stations, may find themselves isolated with no radios, no phones, no roads for their vehicles and working water system fort the fire trucks.
To top it all off, the shock of the situation is likely to result in many people not capable of making sound decisions even if they have the "correct" facts before them. I think a number of public officials in the Katrina case demonstrated this with their on-air presentations. 4 days of no sleep, no showers, spotty information and worrying about your family creates an immense burden to overcome when it comes to being rational, as most of us here know. Most civilian officials have not had personal experience of working under those conditions.
I don't know the answer but just ask the question: At what point should "local" decision making be supplanted by "outsiders"? At what point should it be realized that local facilities and first responders are simply incapable of managing a crisis and need someone else to come in with fresh, untraumatized, dispassionate individuals with all the ready kit and assume command and control.
Despite earth quake/flood/fire proofing buildings is it reasonable to assume that local hospitals, local fire departments, local police, local utility and construction companies are going to be in any shape at all to respond?
In Katrina's case clearly not. If not then who and when and from where will the help come?
When your house goes up in flames, when you receive a wound that requires more than a bandaid you call for help. Help arrives and the helpers take over command and control. You, in your traumatized, incapacitated state are not expect to help put out the fire or even direct operations. Yet that is exactly the situation that we put local authorities in.
We expect that local authorities, with the best local information, can make the best local decisions. But the very nature of disasters means that the local environment has changed, often beyond recognition. Maps may no longer be useful. Communications are likely to be inactive. Roads, railways, runways and ports, when damaged mean that the locals can't get anywhere to find out where the problems are to fix the "biggest" problems first. The mayor may need to dig herself out of her street before she can find her way to City Hall. Firemen and police, if not dead or trapped at home or in their stations, may find themselves isolated with no radios, no phones, no roads for their vehicles and working water system fort the fire trucks.
To top it all off, the shock of the situation is likely to result in many people not capable of making sound decisions even if they have the "correct" facts before them. I think a number of public officials in the Katrina case demonstrated this with their on-air presentations. 4 days of no sleep, no showers, spotty information and worrying about your family creates an immense burden to overcome when it comes to being rational, as most of us here know. Most civilian officials have not had personal experience of working under those conditions.
I don't know the answer but just ask the question: At what point should "local" decision making be supplanted by "outsiders"? At what point should it be realized that local facilities and first responders are simply incapable of managing a crisis and need someone else to come in with fresh, untraumatized, dispassionate individuals with all the ready kit and assume command and control.
Despite earth quake/flood/fire proofing buildings is it reasonable to assume that local hospitals, local fire departments, local police, local utility and construction companies are going to be in any shape at all to respond?
In Katrina's case clearly not. If not then who and when and from where will the help come?
- Reaction score
- 25
- Points
- 430
A job (initially) for the EMO, not the CF.
- Reaction score
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- Points
- 110
Sorry George, I have to bring up the reserves.
The reserves from the areas surrounding the incident should be able to help out until the regular force is mobilized. As Kirkhill pointed out, the local authorities may not be in a state that they will be able to properly respond. It would make sense to draw from outside help. Reservists SHOULD be trained as first responders.
The reserves from the areas surrounding the incident should be able to help out until the regular force is mobilized. As Kirkhill pointed out, the local authorities may not be in a state that they will be able to properly respond. It would make sense to draw from outside help. Reservists SHOULD be trained as first responders.
- Reaction score
- 25
- Points
- 430
;D Once upon a time, a long long time ago, in a land, not so far away, before the Liberal Government and paying down the Deficit with our GST and Gas Taxes, we had an organization that took Community Leaders, Police officials, Coast Guard, Fire Services, Medical Services, Hydro Managers, Municipal Workers, Telecommunications Experts, and such and put them through a College....We'll call it the Emergency Measures Organization's Emergency Preparedness College and trained them to set up the facilities to manage Emergency Response to emergencies that may arise in their communities. And life was good.... ;D
- Reaction score
- 25
- Points
- 430
GNR
Currently it is not the Reserves 'Raison d'etre' to be Emergency Responders. They are having enough problems just being Reservists and conducting their training as members of the 'Armed' Forces. Now, that being said, how many of your Reservists could have been realistically 'Recalled' in a timely fashion in which to assist in this Exercise?
Currently it is not the Reserves 'Raison d'etre' to be Emergency Responders. They are having enough problems just being Reservists and conducting their training as members of the 'Armed' Forces. Now, that being said, how many of your Reservists could have been realistically 'Recalled' in a timely fashion in which to assist in this Exercise?
- Reaction score
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- Points
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1st, they are not MY reservists. Although I would LOVE to have my own personal Army. ;D
2ndly, I know it is currently not the Reserves 'Raison d'etre' to be Emergency Responders, thus my saying "SHOULD be trained as first responders".
3rdly, just where would they be getting "Recalled" from? It was an exercise, reservists do exercises all the time. And if it came down to the real thing the reserves seemed to respond fairly quickly to disastors in the last few years. (For example: Operation Ice Storm and the Manitoba Floods)
2ndly, I know it is currently not the Reserves 'Raison d'etre' to be Emergency Responders, thus my saying "SHOULD be trained as first responders".
3rdly, just where would they be getting "Recalled" from? It was an exercise, reservists do exercises all the time. And if it came down to the real thing the reserves seemed to respond fairly quickly to disastors in the last few years. (For example: Operation Ice Storm and the Manitoba Floods)
- Reaction score
- 0
- Points
- 210
Simply, it was a test for First Responders. To be a first responder you must be in the immediate vicinity/on duty at the time.
This scenario is NOT an act of nature as we had the luxury of a weather forecast to get ready for.
Sorry guys, I going to side with GW, the reserves and the system would not allow for "your" argued response to a 9/11 type attack. (time to pinch yourselves)
- Reaction score
- 7,368
- Points
- 1,160
I agree with GW on the Reserves as well. However my objection has nothing to do with Raison D'Etre or even training or capability. If the police and the fire service can't get out of their homes with the roads clogged why would the Reserves be any better placed? The best course of action for trained personnel under these circumstances is likely to be to start organizing the physically fit in their immediate vicinity to start helping those that they can. Forget about trying to report to a duty station if your neighbourhood is devastated.
I also agree with PIKER. Many, and on the West Coast perhaps the most likely, scenarios all start with no warning. An earthquake at 2 O'Clock on a Sunday morning, with everybody soundly asleep in their beds would be very hard to dig out of.
When local services are overwhelmed then neighbouring services come to assist. This can work well if a small community is surrounded by a number of other communities or if a there is a larger community near by.
What happens if, as in the case of New Orleans the entire regional structure is incapacitated? If Vancouver, Victoria and Seattle, along with all the smaller island and coastal communities are all inundated who will conduct operations then? Its harder to imagine a similar catastrophe hitting Calgary, Edmonton, Toronto, Montreal or Halifax - no man-made event, even a nuclear bomb and certainly not a Biological attack - is likely to be as all encompassing or to be as fast developing as an event on the West Coast. Having said that lack of imagination may be the ultimate reason behind New Orleans problems - although some people did imagine this possibility, and worse, many others did not.
It would be costly to build the necessary organization to handle such an eventuality - money that would likely compete with the CF budget. Alternatives might be to down size Vancouver so that fewer people and dollars are at risk and/or upsize someplace like the Okanagan so as to supply a complementary base of services so that in the event one site is incapacitated the other site can go to its aid. Or perhaps Vancouver, Calgary and Edmonton should be planning on the basis that any two cities maintain services to bring rescue and relief to the third?
And maintaining a single Heavy Urban Search and Rescue organization of 100 to 200 bodies in each city isn't going to get the job done. As demonstrated in New Orleans and even in New York with its much smaller event it requires tens of thousands of organized personnel.
I also agree with PIKER. Many, and on the West Coast perhaps the most likely, scenarios all start with no warning. An earthquake at 2 O'Clock on a Sunday morning, with everybody soundly asleep in their beds would be very hard to dig out of.
When local services are overwhelmed then neighbouring services come to assist. This can work well if a small community is surrounded by a number of other communities or if a there is a larger community near by.
What happens if, as in the case of New Orleans the entire regional structure is incapacitated? If Vancouver, Victoria and Seattle, along with all the smaller island and coastal communities are all inundated who will conduct operations then? Its harder to imagine a similar catastrophe hitting Calgary, Edmonton, Toronto, Montreal or Halifax - no man-made event, even a nuclear bomb and certainly not a Biological attack - is likely to be as all encompassing or to be as fast developing as an event on the West Coast. Having said that lack of imagination may be the ultimate reason behind New Orleans problems - although some people did imagine this possibility, and worse, many others did not.
It would be costly to build the necessary organization to handle such an eventuality - money that would likely compete with the CF budget. Alternatives might be to down size Vancouver so that fewer people and dollars are at risk and/or upsize someplace like the Okanagan so as to supply a complementary base of services so that in the event one site is incapacitated the other site can go to its aid. Or perhaps Vancouver, Calgary and Edmonton should be planning on the basis that any two cities maintain services to bring rescue and relief to the third?
And maintaining a single Heavy Urban Search and Rescue organization of 100 to 200 bodies in each city isn't going to get the job done. As demonstrated in New Orleans and even in New York with its much smaller event it requires tens of thousands of organized personnel.
- Reaction score
- 0
- Points
- 110
I would never suggest that the CF be the ONLY responders. The police, firefighters and EMS teams are definately more geared to this type of a task. (I used natural disastors examples because that is the closest example of reservists from outside of a troubled area responding quickly)
I stand firm in my belief that the CF should be one of the first responders to a terrorist situation on our soil.
I think that the police, firefighters and EMS teams would appreciate any kind of organized help they can receive. If we trained to respond, we would be an asset....even if we were only used as a last resort or to fill out teams. I know we have skills and equipment that would appreciated.
If we fail to prepare ourselves for the task and we are called on (especially as a last resort) we will fail.
I stand firm in my belief that the CF should be one of the first responders to a terrorist situation on our soil.
I think that the police, firefighters and EMS teams would appreciate any kind of organized help they can receive. If we trained to respond, we would be an asset....even if we were only used as a last resort or to fill out teams. I know we have skills and equipment that would appreciated.
If we fail to prepare ourselves for the task and we are called on (especially as a last resort) we will fail.
x-grunt
Full Member
- Reaction score
- 8
- Points
- 230
Interesting thread. I am one of those who think involving the CF in this test was unnecessary. It would be good for the CF to be involved in analyzing the AAR, but that's it.
First, this was a test of a terror attack scenario. Terror attacks, even big ones, tend to be of limited scale. Many of the posts here are referring to large scale natural disasters screwing up an entire region. In a terror attack some infrastucture may be damaged/destroyed but for the most part responders will be able to react. Outside resources are only needed if the first response providers can't cope. So this test is looking at just that - how well do they cope?
Second, first responders are those who can react locally in minutes to a situation. NO CF organization is capable of this around Toronto. Should the CF be involved in these situations? Sure, but as a follow up resource or extra manpower as needed. It takes time to get a reserve unit called out, or a reg unit deployed.
I do think it should be easier to get the reserves into the fray when their community is in need, but that's a different issue.
First, this was a test of a terror attack scenario. Terror attacks, even big ones, tend to be of limited scale. Many of the posts here are referring to large scale natural disasters screwing up an entire region. In a terror attack some infrastucture may be damaged/destroyed but for the most part responders will be able to react. Outside resources are only needed if the first response providers can't cope. So this test is looking at just that - how well do they cope?
Second, first responders are those who can react locally in minutes to a situation. NO CF organization is capable of this around Toronto. Should the CF be involved in these situations? Sure, but as a follow up resource or extra manpower as needed. It takes time to get a reserve unit called out, or a reg unit deployed.
I do think it should be easier to get the reserves into the fray when their community is in need, but that's a different issue.
- Reaction score
- 0
- Points
- 210
GNR said:
So there should be JTF units everywhere!!! :cam:
Being in the system as a Paramedic; Civilian "Forces" need the practise working together and listening/following orders.
In the Military there is a chain of command that is clear.
In Civi land all the different "Bosses" want to be in charge.
Fire always thinks it should be them regardless of the specific emergency at hand. :brickwall:
We do rely on the Military for support (Tornado in Barrie 1985ish)
But that was after the initial responce, and the help was for after the initial crisis.
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- Points
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JTF units everywhere? Uh huh, that's a bit extreme....
And I understand the chain of command, but thanks for the lesson, it's more for the other groups involved. For us to get to know how they work and for them to know us.
So let me get this straight, no one else feels they need to protect the soil we live on??
The rest of you feel if we have a terrorist attack we are to rely on the civy services to mop up the situation and protect our citizens?
It's no wonder I have seen posting questioning if we need a military.
And I understand the chain of command, but thanks for the lesson, it's more for the other groups involved. For us to get to know how they work and for them to know us.
So let me get this straight, no one else feels they need to protect the soil we live on??
The rest of you feel if we have a terrorist attack we are to rely on the civy services to mop up the situation and protect our citizens?
It's no wonder I have seen posting questioning if we need a military.
- Reaction score
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- Points
- 210
GNR said:
That's Right, the Military protects the Country.
Extreme or the ability for the Military to respond to a terrorist threat (in a timely fashion like the Civi counter parts) on our soil?
x-grunt
Full Member
- Reaction score
- 8
- Points
- 230
GNR said:
Your attitude is showing. You say "civy services" like they are amateurs. Some of those "civy services" are experienced, hardened pro's at dealing with domestic emergencies. In some situations they probably are far more experienced then the military. Get off your high horse, the millitary is NOT the only organization defending the country.
In case of a terrorist attack, I am sure the CF will be involved - but not in the first few minutes or even hours. That's for the local emergency services to deal with.
