Thoughts on deployment/rotation length & HLTA

[Scoobie Newbie]

I definately wish we could streamline the process I really do.

 

[helpup]

As I said lots of good points

Ref Streamlining the process. 

I think we all want it streamlined.  Speaking as someone who's unit is ramping up right now ( even though I be manning 10% pool at the moment )  Unfortunately it is not that easy.  As a light unit ramping up.  you have the Veh that are not available until a point that your not always ready.  Then when they do show up those vehicles are being used to get the crews trained.  Once that is done back to the unit they go to get the remainder up to speed.  Plans at all levels seem to be off the cuff, due in part to available resources rather then lack of planning.  (although lack of foresight is involved at times but I digress ) 

We have and do Trg that on paper and first glance shows a high level of skill and accomplishment.  But by and large the rank and file are not as intimately familiar with the Veh/ Eqpt and Tactics as they should be.  This happens as they are not getting enough time with the Veh.  Not a real problem seemingly as we do things such as an Ex in the states for work up Trg and then confirm it out West. 

Yet there is and will be problems.  Ramping up for a tour doesn't give everyone a get out of tasking free card as courses must be run for a persons career or someone needs to be there to instruct on it.  This is especially hard on the NCO/ Officer level.  Even Mech Bn are dealing with this as they get a large influx of BMQ/SQ qualified pers who need to be brought up to speed and qualified.  New promotions means people are working new jobs.  Granted it is easier in their case as they have a core that has a solid Mech background.  Trouble is that is not like it use to be as 1 RCR doesn't have its full compliment of Veh they were loaned out/ tasked out or sent out West full time.  Or they are also mounting a large number for overseas deployment for us or the OMLT. 

The tour length with 6 months being the norm right now has on average a 6 month work up Trg that is actually longer as units ramp up their Trg once they know what rotation they are going on.  So 1 year of increased Trg is now the normal actuality.  To mitigate some of that we now emphasize Mon to Fri 0730 - 1600 and weekends off for a home life. 

I think we all know that it should be streamed, but with the Veh we have, the Trg area available both in the States and out West, the Courses that must be run or attended.  I for the life of me cant see an easy answer.  Even if you could compress it to say 2 months.  When would that be?  Right before a Tour so that a member is never home before being gone for the now 6 or 9 months. ( bearing in mind I still endorse a 9 - 12 month rotation)

So here I sit putting my 2Cents in.  The unit may seem like organized Caos but in the end as it has happend before it will shake out to work before they go. 

 

[McG]

I don't know about you but I'd rather spend 2 months of 16 hour days immersing myself with my crew under a bit of pressure rather than spend 6 months of regular work days with evenings and weekends to go to the clubs or watch TV in the shacks wishing I was home.

The 6 months work up already includes ~2 months 24/7 in the field.  Add to this the limited resources & individual training outlined by helpup and it's not as easy to trim as you suggest. 

 

[dapaterson]

Or is our paradigm just screwed up - why not try the Korean War approach (modified).

Stand up the Special Force.  Do the 9 months of pre-deployment training.  Deploy for 6 months.  Back home for six (two for leave, another two month validation exercise, with a month on either side of it for the minor things that chew up garrison time).  Deploy for another six - with the same unit, the same people doing it again .  Then back home for leave, and posting out to other units.  Repeat as necessary.

This way you get 12 months deployed as a return on your initial training up investment.  It will mean that for a two year period the folks posted to the Special Force unit will not get career courses or postings; I think that's a worthwhile trade-off.

Put together two of these units and you've got the bulk of the deployed force solved for two years - leaving the rest of the Army to rebuild and reset.

 

[dangerboy]

I can't speak at that level but my thoughts are as follows

8 hours a day, 5 days a week, 6 months = 960 hours
16 hours a day, 6 days a week 2 months = 768 hours

yes I believe 192 hours(or one month of workup trg as it is) can be cut from the workup trg program

I don't know about you but I'd rather spend 2 months of 16 hour days immersing myself with my crew under a bit of pressure rather than spend 6 months of regular work days with evenings and weekends to go to the clubs or watch TV in the shacks wishing I was home.

My math says that for a 16 hour day you would start at 6 in the morning and go till 2200 hrs.  I don't think to many troops would go for that, especially ones with families.

 

[daftandbarmy]

... for North Ireland.  How many in those units were > 10% individual augmentees from the Territorial Army?  How many new theatre-only items of kit (including vehicles, comms systems, UAVs, etc) existed almost exclusively in N.I. & had to be learned just before deployment?  How many brand new units (PRT, OMLT) did not exist in a conventional ORBAT and had to be created just before deploying?

Good questions.

Apples to apples comparisons are difficult, but here goes:

1. Reserve augmentation: We usually had about 20 reservists per tour. In many ways, though, I think that CF reservists are better prepared to integrate for a variety of reasons relaterd to our - now integrated - training programs. We always had new drafts coming in and out too. There were very few people, at the rifle company level anyways, with any NI experience both just before, and just after a tour. I remember distinctly, following a tour with 45 Cdo, counting up how many troops/NCOs & Offrs we had with NI training before the tour, and immediately after. It was no more than 10 per company. Given that the UK had been operational there for decades, I found this amazing.

2. Different kit: Well, there was TONS of different kit. Vehicles, radios, Anti-RC and CW IED stuff, helicopter procedures, riot guns and training, new orbats based on the brick and multiple... and the list goes on.... SOPs and training emphasis also changed continually to meet the constantly changing threat. Rural and Urban training requirements were also very different in many ways. It was SO different, the army had serious worries about keeping up with the training and skills needed to counter a Soviet threat. The CF has far more continuity of kit and training in the present COIN environment than we did IMHO.

3. Brand new units: We had our basic bn org based on four rifle companies (Sp Coy was turned into a 4th rifle coy). Each company was reorged significantly to include from 4 to 6 'multiples' (3 x 4 man 'bricks') based on the threat in their TAORs led by either an Offr or SNCO. This was a big reorg. Recce Pl was detached to ucomd HQNI where they were trained to operate in support of undercover operations. These were known as 'COP' platoons (Close Observation Platoon). Each company had to train a special search team for conducting low risk - high risk searches on their own or in support of ATO operations. We also had to create a specialized int capability in each company and at bn level, and each brick had to nominate and train specific people as drivers, 'face men (memorize faces of bad guys), 'car men' (memorize cars of bad guys) etc....

The usual drill was for units to conduct their own reorg and basic NI training (VCPs, battle fitness, update on the threat etc) for about 2 weeks. This was pretty intense, but we'd try and give people weekends off. Before all this, we'd send people off for specialist int/search courses etc as well as conduct admin and ops recces of the locations we'd be taking over. These recces could happen up to two or three months in advance.

We'd then get fed into the NITAT (Northern Ireland Training and Advisory Team) sausage machine for 4 or 5 weeks. NITAT was based at Stanford Plain Training Area (STANTA) and the Cinque Ports Training Area (CPTA), and they ran us through an intense training package of shooting, int upgrading and tactics tailored specifically to the location we were going to and the threat we would face there. For example, I spent 5 days (24/7) in Rype Village - the baddest town on earth - preparing for a Belfast tour. They could whip up a 100 person riot at 3am in 10 minutes so that you would go from kipping on the floor with boots on to being showered with real petrol bombs in a few minutes, and it was all captured on cameras and film for amusing and informative debriefs later. (It's OK, the counseling is helping). Mega live fire ranges were laid on in both urban and rural environments, as well as all the int play that had to go on to simulate the real deal. Choppers were available, RUC policemen were available, the real 'spooks' we need to work with were there, and it was all generally very well done with little chicken-poo involved. The whole unit would move from their location to barracks at Standford during this period, and we spent most of our time living in the field or in mock-SF bases with no 'time off' that I can remember.

Look, they're tearing down my old home! Sob....
http://www.mod.uk/DefenceInternet/DefenceNews/TrainingAndAdventure/FinalNorthernIrelandTrainingTowerToppled.htm

Near the end of our time at NITAT, we'd then get a 'grade' from the NITAT staff. If we passed, we'd proceed on pre-tour leave. If we 'failed' the CO would get a chance to spend a little more time upgrading us in specific areas. Needless to say, few wanted to 'fail'. I had the pleasure of leading my company back to NITAT as enemy force for a not to be named unit who did 'fail'. They deserved to. Anyways, they had to re-do the whole rural phase, which meant the unit they were relieving had to remain in South Armagh for an extra week or two. No happy campers there I can assure you. By the end of this experience everyone was operating as a good team and all atts and dets had been well integrated.

Pre-tour leave was usually a week, then off you go across the pond. Leave during the tour for 'roulement' battalions, posted to the hardest areas for 4-5 months, was 5 days per person (including travel to and from mainland UK). 'Residential' battalions were posted to 'softer' areas for 2 years - accompanied - and pretty much carried on with normal garrison routine, but always had one company on operations, one off and one doing regular training. The whole unit could be called out to deal with bigger operations. Post tour leave was about 2 weeks and represented the normal leave you'd get for summer/Xmas or whatever. Nothing special there. 16 battalions of infantry were in the province more or less all the time during the 80s, all working very hard.

So, from start to finish, I think it took about 8 weeks for 95% of the unit to prepare for one of these tours, including pre-tour leave. Having NITAT available (one in UK, one in Germany, one in Ballykinlar for individual augmentees) was critically important as there was no way we could generate the resources and knowledge required to train ourselves in everything we needed to know.

What would we have done with 6 months? No idea. From the depths of my armchair, that seems way too long for a busy army to accommodate.

 

[1feral1]

For my roto, my training began in Jan 06 in Darwin from Jan to Mar. I needed to get up to speed on the M242 chain gun. The official lead up trg for Iraq for our Combat Team commenced in May til August, where we trained in Puckpunyal Victoria, then in Brisbane, then Sydney, then at wide Bay, then the MRE in Brisbane. Deployed Aug 06, got home the end of Mar 07. There was lots of travel, right from the top end of the country to the bottom.

Daily hrs for trg was 0730-1600, wknds off, and fd trg was 24/7.

Lots of fd time, lots of shooting, TTPs etc. We were sharp and ready. Cultural awareness, basic arabic, etc.

I was away every month in 06 except April, and then not home til Mar 07.

We felt from May to August was just too much, and we reached a plateau in July, and from there we maintained the standard. Moral began to drop, as we had many from Darwin and had not seen family in 3 months. Those with young kids were affected, with pressure on from their 9D's, etc.

Pre deployment trg is now about 6-8 weeks so I am told.

My 2 bob.

Wes

 

[daftandbarmy]

I'm betting that, as we get better at this stuff, the preparation time will drop. Months away from home BEFORE a long tour is sheer madness. Frequently, the length of preparation time has more to do with nervous and inexperienced Generals and politicians than it does with unskilled troops.

"Do not take counsel of your fears"

(Patton, Letter of Instruction No. 1, issued to Corps, Division and Separate Unit Commanders)

 

[Greymatters]

I'm betting that, as we get better at this stuff, the preparation time will drop. Months away from home BEFORE a long tour is sheer madness. Frequently, the length of preparation time has more to do with nervous and inexperienced Generals and politicians than it does with unskilled troops.

I think a lot of it has to do with occupation and deployment area as well... some trades need the extended work up time, others should have the workup time and dont, some you can drop in ready to go...

 

[helpup]

Posted by: Greymatters

I think a lot of it has to do with occupation and deployment area as well... some trades need the extended work up time, others should have the workup time and don't, some you can drop in ready to go...

Back in the "Cold War" time when the CF was trained for Europe, with the odd tour here and there you could cut back Trg time as units were "Trained " and manned up to a certain speed.  But from what I have seen and experienced the past 6 or so years that is no longer true.  There use to be a very solid core in all units that were experienced Cpl's NCO's and Officers.  They have by and large been with that particular unit for a long time and intimate with all aspects of Trg for war.  SOP's were down pat drills were sharp and all was right with the world.  If a tour came up it was doing mission specific Trg a couple of large work up Ex's to merge that BG or unit being sent and off you went. 

Now though we are scrambling more and more.  A very large percentage of soldiers are brand new, just posted in or don't have the experience the " cold war " soldiers have.  And I don't mean that as a slight.  but with the Op tempo for the past Decade gone were the regular RV's Germany flyover Ex or major Trg that had you perfecting your basic job, Training for War.  Due to that you now have young NCO's who have done little outside of prepping for a tour, going on tour, or going on Career Courses/ teaching on them.  The normal routine that we as a army use to do is gone for the for seeable future.  Granted there has been a huge and much needed influx of troops who have actual combat experience and that cant be said enough is a good thing.  Their lessons learned are getting disseminated at the schools and to the units.  But the overall ability to have a Bn train and get their basic soldier skills, unit SOP's and general knowledge to a point that it is done with out thought is getting harder to come by.  In between tours units become bare bone skeletons that are undermanned.  Coy's are below 50% strength for over a year before they start to ramp up the personnel for the next time into the breach.  Some of this was a direct result of a manning increase and of a certain new unit starting up.  But overall from what I can see this is Army wide, or at least infantry.   

So before we can get to a point of cut short Trg time, do Mission Specific Trg and go we would need to get our manpower at a consistant 75% of full strength on a continuous basis.  I don't see that happening, instead it is and will be more of the plug and play for troops who have trained here and there and rely on your BG stand up time to bring it all together. 

 

[George Wallace]

helpup

You do have some very good points there.  Another problem is the "Plug 'N Play" philosophy that has crept into the CF.  We still have very experienced Offrs and NCOs, but when we take them from one organization and plunk them down in another, they have to learn the MO/SOPs of the gaining 'parent' organization. 

In the past we had units that had interoperability with other units and were dedicated to and practiced with them on a regular basis in Cbt Team and Bde Trg.  Arty FOO and FAC teams were assigned to and trained extensively with a Inf or Armour unit and basically became 'regulars' at those units.  Armour Sqns would be partnered with Infantry Coys, as would Engr Troops.  Times have changed.  New "more efficient" ways of deploying troops have been developed.........Someone reinvented the wheel and it has flat areas making for a bumpy ride.

 

[daftandbarmy]

helpup

You do have some very good points there.  Another problem is the "Plug 'N Play" philosophy that has crept into the CF.  We still have very experienced Offrs and NCOs, but when we take them from one organization and plunk them down in another, they have to learn the MO/SOPs of the gaining 'parent' organization. 

In the past we had units that had interoperability with other units and were dedicated to and practiced with them on a regular basis in Cbt Team and Bde Trg.  Arty FOO and FAC teams were assigned to and trained extensively with a Inf or Armour unit and basically became 'regulars' at those units.  Armour Sqns would be partnered with Infantry Coys, as would Engr Troops.  Times have changed.  New "more efficient" ways of deploying troops have been developed.........Someone reinvented the wheel and it has flat areas making for a bumpy ride.

That's precisely the reason why the UK has such short lead ups to NI tours: the main effort was Germany. The concern was keeping troops away too long from training for the 'real threat'.

 

[The Bread Guy]

Shared in accordance with the "fair dealing" provisions, Section 29, of the Copyright Act.

Longer Afghan missions eyed
MacKay says extending 6-month stints possible as manpower shortages hamper Afghan mission
Bruce Campion-Smith & Allan Woods, Toronto Star, 20 Mar 08
Article link

OTTAWA–Longer deployments for Canadian troops in Kandahar – perhaps as long as a year – are being considered as the military struggles to meet the manpower demands of a mission that has been extended by two years.  Defence Minister Peter MacKay said yesterday from Kandahar he is not ruling it out, but added the decision rests with senior commanders.  "I rely very heavily on the military assessment of that," MacKay said yesterday as he wrapped up his visit. "We're not ruling anything out, but of course these are operational decisions where I'll take that up with the chief of defence staff."

Retired general Lewis MacKenzie said the forces could have to introduce longer deployments to meet the demands of keeping 2,500 soldiers in Afghanistan at a time, through to 2011.  "It's a matter of resources. ... I think they're going to have to look at it," MacKenzie said yesterday. "It's a pretty frequent subject of discussion because they are facing the dilemma of just not enough troops."  MacKenzie said the army has an effective infantry corps of about 5,000, once leaves, injuries and other absences are accounted for.  Out of Canada's 2,500 soldiers in Afghanistan at a time, typically 800 to 1,000 are front-line infantry corps.  MacKenzie said the force should consider deployments of nine months, even a year ....


From Canadian Press:  "It will be for the Canadian Forces to decide whether they need their troops to spend longer periods of time in Afghanistan, Defence Minister Peter MacKay said yesterday at the end of a three-day tour of reconstruction and training efforts in Kandahar province.  MacKay deferred the question of longer rotations to Gen. Rick Hillier, Canada's chief of defence staff. "I rely very heavily on the military assessment of that," MacKay said in response to a reporter's question. "We're not ruling anything out, but of course these are operational decisions where I'll take that up with the chief of defence staff." "

 

[Spartan]

Sounds similiar to what I've heard from friends over there..... (though they mentioned this as they were heading out the door...)

 

[X-mo-1979]

Shared in accordance with the "fair dealing" provisions, Section 29, of the Copyright Act.

Longer Afghan missions eyed
MacKay says extending 6-month stints possible as manpower shortages hamper Afghan mission
Bruce Campion-Smith & Allan Woods, Toronto Star, 20 Mar 08
Article link

MacKenzie said the army has an effective infantry corps of about 5,000, once leaves, injuries and other absences are accounted for.  Out of Canada's 2,500 soldiers in Afghanistan at a time, typically 800 to 1,000 are front-line infantry corps.  MacKenzie said the force should consider deployments of nine months, even a year ....

What classifies as a 5000 strong infantry corp?Is this reserves as well?

I have mixed feelings on the 9-12 months.

 

[Pte_Martin]

For TF 3-08 we were told that we would most likely be there between 7-9 Months.

 

[X-mo-1979]

For TF 3-08 we were told that we would most likely be there between 7-9 Months.

HOW COME I WASNT INFORMED!!!

lol

Seriously though...how come.. ;D

 

[krustyrl]

Could this mean a faster turnstile for those wanting out.?   

 

[The_Pipes]

For TF 3-08 we were told that we would most likely be there between 7-9 Months.

We were told count on 7 months

 

[lyned]

That'll drop the recruiting numbers, no?