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They owe us

bilton090 said:
  Was in Wainwright training for 07, some people have to work !

So that excuses you from reading threads or making comments
that are out of line with the meaning, tone and content of what
the individual meant?

Are you implying that I don't work because I'm not slated for the
current Roto? Or are you just trying to brag that you're on the Roto?

Either way...  it no excuse.
 
Trinity said:
So that excuses you from reading threads or making comments
that are out of line with the meaning, tone and content of what
the individual meant?

Are you implying that I don't work because I'm not slated for the
current Roto? Or are you just trying to brag that you're on the Roto?

Either way...  it no excuse.
    I was saying I was in Wainwright, no way to read Army.ca. I was not out of line, I'm not saying you don't work because your not on the Roto. I was saying I had to work !
  I read your post 3 times !, I said we are supporting NATO !, end of story !  :salute:
  P.S- You sir need a time out !
 
bilton090 said:
    I was saying I was in Wainwright, no way to read Army.ca. I was not out of line, I'm not saying you don't work because your not on the Roto. I was saying I had to work !
  I read your post 3 times !, I said we are supporting NATO !, end of story !  :salute:
  P.S- You sir need a time out !

::)

Ok Bilton.. whatever!

Anyone who reads this thread will see right through you.
 
Trinity said:
::)

Ok Bilton.. whatever!

Anyone who reads this thread will see right through you.
    Good support, for the pointy end ?    Nice, childish ! SON !
 
bilton090 said:
    Good support, for the pointy end ?    Nice, childish ! SON !
Not sure what this has to do with the current topic or, for that matter, the attached pic.

The one thing that I find regretable is that both Germany and France have some very good, proud and capable soldiers who, IMO, are probably not too happy with the current situation either.  Unfortunately, they are getting painted with a brush that is not of their making but that of their political masters.  We see it plastered all over the press, and so many of the stories give the impression it is the troops who won't fight, when, in reality, it is the politicians trying to cover their political butt so they can get re-elected.  I believe they call that democracy.
 
rmacqueen said:
Not sure what this has to do with the current topic or, for that matter, the attached pic.

The one thing that I find regretable is that both Germany and France have some very good, proud and capable soldiers who, IMO, are probably not too happy with the current situation either.  Unfortunately, they are getting painted with a brush that is not of their making but that of their political masters.  We see it plastered all over the press, and so many of the stories give the impression it is the troops who won't fight, when, in reality, it is the politicians trying to cover their political butt so they can get re-elected.  I believe they call that democracy.

Well said Mac, the uniform may be different, as is the national flag patch, but threy are still the same as us. Anyone who wears a uniform or has worn it is by inclusion one of us and a "brother in arms." Besides it's not as if there have not been times in our history when our political masters held us back from helping out our Allies.

Nowa s for the bun fighting duo on this thread, the infantile attacks and johnson waving contest ceases now, or you will both be introduced to the warning system.
 
In line with this discussion there is this letter to the National Post editor today.  It was written by retired Commander Lerhe. 

Don't blame NATO allies for Afghan problems

Published: Saturday, December 02, 2006
The apparent unwillingness of NATO allies to share the burden of our Canadian soldiers in Kandahar has caused many to claim that organization is a failure. This argument has many weaknesses.

First, Canada should never raise the issue of NATO burden sharing or mission caveats. For decades, we had the poorest defence spending performance of all NATO members except Luxembourg. Further, throughout the Balkan operations of the 1990s, we employed mission caveats as wilfully as any ally.

Second, the call for those operating in the north to send their troops south likely hazards the only visibly successful sectors in Afghanistan. In the north, attacks are down, reconstruction is progressing and the Afghan military and police are being trained in large numbers. None of this is happening to any significant extent in the south, so those nations working in the north have little incentive to abandon successful but only half-completed projects there.

Third, Canadian support of reconstruction efforts in Kandahar is a disgrace. CIDA has not spent not a penny in Kandahar from August, 2005, to August, 2006. In the same period we spent at least $810-million on our military deployment to Kandahar. This summer, when NATO commander General David Richards suggested that he would rather have $50-million in development assistance than 5,000 new NATO troops, Canada promptly spent $189-million to send battle tanks to Kandahar.

Fourth, things in the south may soon be getting much worse, as the U.S. intends to spray defoliant on the poppy fields. The American Council on Foreign Relations predicts this will drive poor farmers to the Taliban. Regrettably, alternative approaches, such as funding alternative crops, get token treatment.

Finally, many of our allies may be reluctant to send their forces south because they have plans in place that will allow them to work in the north for the 10 to 14 years needed to stabilize and reconstruct Afghanistan. We have not. We started with a seriously flawed deployment plan and are now desperately attempting to correct it. The decision not to send troops to Kandahar for a second rotation, ever, means we mathematically cannot sustain operations past 2008-9.

Make no mistake. I feel NATO and Canada must be in Afghanistan, but blaming our allies will produce nothing but ill will. We would have better luck attracting allies and supporting our courageous troops if Canada provided adequate resources and a coherent, sustainable military plan.

Commodore Eric Lerhe (ret'd) and former director of NATO policy, Dartmouth, N.

I don't find much there to disagree with.  And I, like him, support the mission. 

The only thing that amuses/bemuses/bothers me is how much of human nature never progresses beyond the playground.  "You didn't ivite me to your birthday party. I'm not inviting you to mine."
The reason I'm a conservative I guess.  I don't see any evidence of progress in individuals or societies over the millenia.  I don't exptect any in the future.  It is what it is.
 
AND!!! All things being equal it wouldn't take much to topple the present minority Gov. and it wouldn't be too much of a stretch for any new Gov. to be swayed by public opinion and yank Canada out toute suite.

Cheers
 
As one who had to live with these national caveats as a LNO in MOSTAR BiH you get a better insight into the French and Germans. For the Germans there is a real guilt issue of WW II that remains. As for the French I think they have done the biz on a number of missions over the years. I do not think it is wise that we Canadians start throwing stones willy nilly at these two nations. They have in the past been great friends and will remain so. I think we need cooler heads to prevail.

I do have one small bit of humour to add. So there I was at a staff meeting in MOSTAR with the Germans, French, Italians and Spain. The German Bde Comd ask why we Cdns, Brits, and Dutch were so good at Harvest Ops. When I told him the German BGen said................... Captain you don't understand the German Army dosn't kick in doors. I said when did that change Sir. Well everyone saw the humour, less the Germans. The morale of the story is that this is a real issue for them at home politically one I do not think many of us really grasp. These folks have to live with the history of WWII and the destruction caused by them.

By the way there is NO GLORY IN WAR. I suggest if you think there is pay a visit to anyone one of the wounded in hospital as I do on a daily basis.
 
Well spoken by Commodore Lehre.  He pretty much makes the case.

Glory in War? What about the selflessness of duty? In my eyes, nobody, I mean nobody, owes me a thing for the time I've spent overseas. 

I think there are several folks who would agree with me. 
 
Third, Canadian support of reconstruction efforts in Kandahar is a disgrace. CIDA has not spent not a penny in Kandahar from August, 2005, to August, 2006. In the same period we spent at least $810-million on our military deployment to Kandahar. This summer, when NATO commander General David Richards suggested that he would rather have $50-million in development assistance than 5,000 new NATO troops, Canada promptly spent $189-million to send battle tanks to Kandahar.

Perhaps it's just because I'm in the thick of exam time and just a tad tired out, but I'm trying to figure out what Commodore (Retd.) Lehre meant when referring to the Leos sent over.  Is he objecting to it, saying that the money should have gone towards "development assistance"? 
 
I think that is exactly what the good Commodore was refering too.

My opinion as someone now outside the CF system is we now have a hammer and are running around looking for nails, however we are running with scissors in the other hand.
  The Army is happy it finally gets to do "the business" -- but it takes more than a hammer to build a house...


 
Infidel-6 said:
  The Army is happy it finally gets to do "the business" -- but it takes more than a hammer to build a house...

And there is the problem in a nutshell....
 
Infidel-6 said:
I think that is exactly what the good Commodore was refering too.

My opinion as someone now outside the CF system is we now have a hammer and are running around looking for nails, however we are running with scissors in the other hand.
  The Army is happy it finally gets to do "the business" -- but it takes more than a hammer to build a house...

Fair enough.  I just expected that the need for more reconstruction $$$ wouldn't be used to knock the Leo deployment.  In other words, perhaps suggest the DND/CF/GC do both.
 
PPCLI Guy said:
And there is the problem in a nutshell....

He's getting good at that.  He must be keeping different company these days.
 
Kilo Mike said:
Fair enough.  I just expected that the need for more reconstruction $$$ wouldn't be used to knock the Leo deployment.  In other words, perhaps suggest the DND/CF/GC do both.
ENTIRELY too many people (especially in the GoC) dont understand the difference in efforts.
 
I can see the point of they owe us.
We have stood beside them for the past few years as a strong supporter of NATO and the UN. Both of these organizations were used to thwart the unruly USSR factions.

How much money we put into the commitment doesnt hide the fact that when push come to shove, had the USSR factions marched over their countrys we would have stepped up to the plate and gone for the win.

Again it is the soldiers, the men who are suffering the politicle consequnces of their countrys unwillingness to support the ugly side of the mission. If the tables were reversed and it was them asking us to help them out I am sure that we would step up to the plate. We have done it in the past and will in the future.

As for France being involved in their own spats for so many years with out support, yes well that is what a self interested, conquring country does. They do their own dirty work. They get to rome free and take care of business.

What benifit to any country comes out of Afganistan?
What do we gain, what do we loose?

I dont know. I do know that if we can bring peace and stabilty to one more country then we have done the right thing.
How many lives does it take, 1 or 100,000. The limit is endless, it is a mission, one that involves bad people with vested interests to keep us out. They will do that at all cost to their hired guns.
The situation is much greater then just the local area. My questions is what higher dealings do the countrys have. It has been proven in the past that France, Germany among a few have been heavily involved with the scandles such as oil for food in Iraq, they have been involved with other very specific self intrests in some of the former UN patrolled countrys. Involving them selves only to a point of slef interst and then either pulled out or patitioned the UN to pull out. For what, a sale of weapons and oil, diamonds etc.

Again it is the soldiers who have paid for this.
Do I think that French or German soldiers are cowards or weak. No, They are both a strong dedicatedforce. Who when given the Green light can cause grave consequences for the opposing force.
If they both got heavily involved in the situation in southern Afganistan I think an end to the whole conflict would come sooner then later.
My question is who is gaining form this war on going. Is their some weapons scandle going on we do not know about? more then likely.
France jumped aboard the bandwagon to go into Lebanon to seprate the two factions. Only to ridcule the Israelis for their lack of a cease fire. Yet very little is said about the other side and their breeches of the cease fire.

who is right and who is wrong?
Soldiers are soldiers, savages are savages, politicians are politicians.
We win wars with over whelming brute force. We win contracts with over whelming politicle dealings.
 
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