The 'What If Canada Gets Attacked' Superthread

[Old Sweat]

The belief that 10 Mountain Division is at Fort Drum in case an attack on Ottawa is required is a paranoid delusion that periodically erupts out of certain academics at Queens. I was stationed at HQ Tradoc in Fort Monroe, VA when the decision to activate the formation was made. There was widespread consternation when its home was announced as the army had wanted it stationed in the Sun Belt. The NY Congressional Delegation lobbied long and hard to get it put in Drum for the economic benefit to the area, which was not prosperous at all.

 

[a_majoor]

This thread is still better: http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/45142.255.html

 

[GAP]

This thread is still better: http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/45142.255.html

Hey! Hey! Science was ADVANCED in that thread.............. :nod:

 

[PMedMoe]

OK, if the scenario is now a Div from upstate NY (that would make it the 10th Mountain Div) heading for Ottawa, they'd have to fight their way past Kingston first.

In buying time for 2CMBG to mobilze and deploy to blocking positions south of Ottawa, I'd be willing to do my part....basing a defensive position on the Kingston Brewing Company and the Tir Nan Og, with the Pilot House and the Toucan as the secondary prepared positions.

Defending Kingston's taverns to the last pint! 

"WOLVERINES!"  "MORE WINGS!"  :cheers:  :warstory:

I'm with ya!!  :nod:  :threat:

 

[vonGarvin]

I'll guard the Eastern approaches, you know, allowing the one unit in 2 CMBG that isn't in Ontario time to deploy to help with the actions north of Kingston.  I'll start at Dolans, and then there's the Garrison, and, if necessary, Griffons.....


:warstory:

 

[helpup]

The belief that 10 Mountain Division is at Fort Drum in case an attack on Ottawa is required is a paranoid delusion that periodically erupts out of certain academics at Queens. I was stationed at HQ Tradoc in Fort Monroe, VA when the decision to activate the formation was made. There was widespread consternation when its home was announced as the army had wanted it stationed in the Sun Belt. The NY Congressional Delegation lobbied long and hard to get it put in Drum for the economic benefit to the area, which was not prosperous at all.

Umm OS, you do know it was a joke about the proximity of Pet to Ottawa to defend Ottawa from the Evil Empire right????? :  The English speaking one.

Hey that was another joke on one of the rhumours as to Pet's location

Defend the Tap's boys and lets beat them on the ice!!!

 

[cphansen]

I got very interested in this thread. While the concept of the USA invading Canada is far fetched, so was the concept of Germany invading Denmark.

I think there are some parallels, Germany and Denmark had been at peace since the Schleswig Holstein war in 1849. Denmark was neutral during WWI. This was almost 100 years of peace before Nazi Germany invaded Denmark.

I suspect a US invasion of Canada might follow the same pattern.

A surprise invasion, catching the Danish troops in their barracks, The Danes responded and set up roadblocks and started fighting the Germans. They did receive and imposed many casualties holding the Germans back at some positions. Meanwhile the German ambassador delivered an ultimatum to the Danish cabinet to immediately surrender or Copenhagen would be levelled by the German air force.

The politicans capitulated and surrendered before they  had even declared war on Germany, and ordered the troops to cease fighting. The Danish troops fought skillfully and well and imposed more casualties than they took. They were doing a good job and there are some very interesting stories like the story of how an entire company of the Danish Army commandeered a ferry boat and sailed to Sweden where they became the first element of the Danish Brigade in Sweden, this eventually grew to a trained, fully equiped, divisional force.

I can see Canada getting invaded, the Forces fighting and dying true to their oath, only to have the polticians let them down

 

[skater021]

I got very interested in this thread. While the concept of the USA invading Canada is far fetched, so was the concept of Germany invading Denmark.

I think there are some parallels, Germany and Denmark had been at peace since the Schleswig Holstein war in 1849. Denmark was neutral during WWI. This was almost 100 years of peace before Nazi Germany invaded Denmark.

I suspect a US invasion of Canada might follow the same pattern.

A surprise invasion, catching the Danish troops in their barracks, The Danes responded and set up roadblocks and started fighting the Germans. They did receive and imposed many casualties holding the Germans back at some positions. Meanwhile the German ambassador delivered an ultimatum to the Danish cabinet to immediately surrender or Copenhagen would be levelled by the German air force.

The politicans capitulated and surrendered before they  had even declared war on Germany, and ordered the troops to cease fighting. The Danish troops fought skillfully and well and imposed more casualties than they took. They were doing a good job and there are some very interesting stories like the story of how an entire company of the Danish Army commandeered a ferry boat and sailed to Sweden where they became the first element of the Danish Brigade in Sweden, this eventually grew to a trained, fully equiped, divisional force.

I can see Canada getting invaded, the Forces fighting and dying true to their oath, only to have the polticians let them down

Well spoken!

 

[Dennis Ruhl]

I think there are some parallels, Germany and Denmark had been at peace since the Schleswig Holstein war in 1849.

2nd Schleswig War - 1864

 

[vonGarvin]

I think there are some parallels, Germany and Denmark had been at peace since the Schleswig Holstein war in 1849.

Actually, when the German Reich invaded Denmark in 1940, it was the first time that those two nations had been at war.  Remember, prior to 1870, there was no "Germany".

 

[helpup]

Actually, when the German Reich invaded Denmark in 1940, it was the first time that those two nations had been at war.  Remember, prior to 1870, there was no "Germany".

Untill Bismark got his hands into the politics of the time.

 

[vonGarvin]

Untill Bismark got his hands into the politics of the time.

I'm well aware of Bismarck et al and the history of the German-speaking lands of Central Europe.

 

[cphansen]

2nd Schleswig War - 1864

You're right. I made a mistake, my point that I was trying to make, is they were good neighbours and had peace for a long time. The Danes did not have a series of border fortifications.

I must admit the Germans put on a good well coordinated invasion. The Navy, Air force and Army were well coordinated and had an interesting plan. Think of PEI being invaded by the eastern USA, overwhelming force triumphing over gallantry.

 

[GR66]

I've been content to sit back and chuckle up till now but the big question that keeps coming to my mind when I see people seriously thinking about this is why the heck would the US WANT to invade us? 

I don't think that there is any real question that the US COULD invade us and pretty quickly put an end to any major conventional military resistance if they really wanted to, but the question is WHY?  The probable cost (in blood and treasure) of seizing control of Canada might be pretty low, the cost of actually trying to hold on to, and control a country of this size would be economically crippling.  Look how difficult and expensive it has been to try and occupy Iraq and Afghanistan which are tiny in comparison to Canada.  What possible huge benefit could the US get out of invading and trying to hold on to Canada that would offset that expense?

Some people will suggest oil, or water, or food as possible reasons, but seriously we are two capitalist states with integrated and interdependant economies.  It would be far, far cheaper for the US to simply BUY what they need from us rather than try and take it from us unwillingly by force.  And can anyone seriously forsee a situation where Canada would not willingly sell the United States what they need in order to fuel our own economy?  Refusing to do so would be economic suicide for this country since we'd not only lose a huge potential source of revenue from the sales of our valuable resources but also face possibly being shut out of the US market by an angry US government.  I don't think any Canadian government that followed such a policy would have a hope in hell of getting re-elected after putting the country back into another Great Depression.

If things were to go so horribly wrong in the world that food, fuel and/or water were in such short global supply that the US was physically incapable of buying what they need then the whole question of the "United States" invading "Canada" would be out the window anyway.  By that point we'll be living in a "Mad Max" scenario and the total societal collapse would have us more worried about fighting with the town down the road than having the militaries of two nation states waging a conventional war of conquest.

But hey...what do I know?

 

[cphansen]

I've been content to sit back and chuckle up till now but the big question that keeps coming to my mind when I see people seriously thinking about this is why the heck would the US WANT to invade us? 

Good question.

Let me try to answer it by using the German Invasion of Denmark as an example in WWII.

First Denmark and Germany were at peace, no German minority stirring up trouble in Denmark, Denmark was a small agricultrul country which was cooperating with Germany, basically favored nation status. Denmark's is basically a sand spit, a big one, but basically a sand spit without major national resources.

Germany had no reason to invade and stood to lose by the invasion.

However Norway had substancial resources of minerals needed for German war production. Denmark and Norway are not the same at all, although Norway was governed by Denmark, until the Norwegians won their independence.

The German planning for Norway included the invasion of northern Denmark to provide an airbase for the protection of the invasion fleet. The Danes had just built an airport in Aalborg, which would have been perfect, so Aalborg was a target but not the rest of Denmark. The German High Command planned accordingly until the plans were discussed with Hitler and he made the decision to occupy the entire country.

No one knows why he decided this, but he did, and thus Denmark was invaded because of one man's decision, against the advise of his advisors and basically the best interest of his country.

My point is an invasion can be triggered by unforeseen events and by irrational decisions by a single person.

 

[Bruce Monkhouse]

I can't believe I just read 8 pages of Radio Chatter........oh well, once ya get sucked in I guess you have to heap more excrement on the pile.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ety2FEHQgwM

 

[GR66]

Let me try to answer it by using the German Invasion of Denmark as an example in WWII.

Apples and Oranges.  Denmark was in an important strategic position to both support the invasion of Norway and to control access to the Baltic.

Denmark is also was (is) a small country which was fairly easy to occupy.  Canada on the other hand is the 2nd largest nation on earth with widely separated population centres, resource bases, lines of communication, etc.  A nightmare to try and occupy by a force of any size.

What big strategic advantage would occupying Canada give the US vis-a-vis other countries?  Would seizing our military infrastructure give the US any huge advantages vs. China or Russia over their own existing facilities in Iceland, Greenland and Alaska? 

For that matter if China and/or Russia were posing a serious direct threat to the United States through Canada would not Canada willingly side with the US rather than obstucting the US by choosing neutrality and refusing to support the Americans thus forcing the US to occupy us?

While I guess that nothing is "impossible" I'd place the probability of the United States invading Canada pretty low on the list of things I'm worried about.  Certainly not high enough to waste any time or treasure preparing against such an eventuality when they can certainly be spent on a billion other things that are much, much, MUCH more likely to be a problem for us.

I think I'll go back to quietly watching and chuckling now.

 

[helpup]

I'm well aware of Bismarck et al and the history of the German-speaking lands of Central Europe.

That was more for the others TV, I figured you knew it as you pointed out the Germanies were not a unified country at that time. 

 

[QORvanweert]

Good question.

Let me try to answer it by using the German Invasion of Denmark as an example in WWII.

First Denmark and Germany were at peace, no German minority stirring up trouble in Denmark, Denmark was a small agricultrul country which was cooperating with Germany, basically favored nation status. Denmark's is basically a sand spit, a big one, but basically a sand spit without major national resources.

Germany had no reason to invade and stood to lose by the invasion.

However Norway had substancial resources of minerals needed for German war production. Denmark and Norway are not the same at all, although Norway was governed by Denmark, until the Norwegians won their independence.

The German planning for Norway included the invasion of northern Denmark to provide an airbase for the protection of the invasion fleet. The Danes had just built an airport in Aalborg, which would have been perfect, so Aalborg was a target but not the rest of Denmark. The German High Command planned accordingly until the plans were discussed with Hitler and he made the decision to occupy the entire country.

No one knows why he decided this, but he did, and thus Denmark was invaded because of one man's decision, against the advise of his advisors and basically the best interest of his country.

My point is an invasion can be triggered by unforeseen events and by irrational decisions by a single person.

To summarize, the conclusion you arrived at was that the States would invade us to get to Russia. Or Hans Island as a staging ground for their eventual invasion of Greenland(which is also administered by those pesky Danes!) Perhaps their interests are more focused on St. Pierre et Miquelon? They would have to battle their way through an island filled with screech drinking newfies first BUT it could happen 

The original poster raised a question that I find far more interesting for its speculative qualities rather than its likelihood of happening. I believe that the US would be able to defeat the CF in conventional warfare. I doubt anyone on these forums would argue to the contrary. They wouldn't need to attack us with ground forces, they could obliterate our entire country with nuclear weapons. The fallout from that(pun intended) would be disastrous and would not be in their own interest in any conceivable manner. However, it could indeed happen.

In my opinion the scenario would play out more along the lines of this: War is declared against us/declaration appears imminent. The US' opposition party would immediately seize the opportunity to create a constitutional crisis. Public opinion would immediately polarize along partisan lines. The 'war' would result in the secession of several states (Northern Democrat states like Maine etc...) and lend important intellectual weight to vocal advocates of restructuring their union. In the end I doubt troops would ever cross the border in either direction and America would divide along idealogical lines. This is sheer speculation of course and for all I know some Canadian will do their country such great harm that we become the continental bogeyman. My experiences in the States have led me to believe that most Americans live in ignorant bliss about us and view us a quiet backwater completely removed from their lives. I disagree with that sentiment but perception and truth are two very different beasts. We are incredibly fortunate to live in the friendly shadow of their military giant and any conflict between us would bring death and misery on a global scale. I shudder to think of the cost in lives that would be paid without any justifiable cause.

 

[cphansen]

You (I, Citizen) said
To summarize, the conclusion you arrived at was that the States would invade us to get to Russia. Or Hans Island as a staging ground for their eventual invasion of Greenland(which is also administered by those pesky Danes!) Perhaps their interests are more focused on St. Pierre et Miquelon? They would have to battle their way through an island filled with screech drinking newfies first BUT it could happen 


Nope, my conclusion was
No one knows why he decided this, but he did, and thus Denmark was invaded because of one man's decision, against the advise of his advisors and basically the best interest of his country.

My point is an invasion can be triggered by unforeseen events and by irrational decisions by a single person.


I say
And the USA does have a history of invasions. In the US war is not to be declared without the approval of Congress, but Presidents have launched invasions without Congress. IMHO, the USA has had some strange Presidents, who would be capable of launching an invasion of Canada. Oh wait they already did that.

I agree with you about how fortunate we are to be in the shadow of the US, but Mexico has not fared so well, it has lost much territory to the US. eg California, Texas and much of the American west