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I keep trying to educate the ignorant masses down here that Canada won the War of 1812, but they seem to not to want to be re-educated. ;D
Seriously though, most of the historians I've read cannot really agree as to which side actually won, and are more likely as not to call it a draw. The British, and more specifically Canada were victorious in keeping US expansionist policies from coming to fruition, beating back the invading US troops in the first half of the war. However the US was victorious in defeating British troops invading US soil.
The only thing that historians do agree on is that the biggest loser at the end of the war was the native peoples. British indifference and US policies of western expansion resulted in the displacement of the natives from their lands and forced ever further west and onto marginal lands where they could barely survive.
Seriously though, most of the historians I've read cannot really agree as to which side actually won, and are more likely as not to call it a draw. The British, and more specifically Canada were victorious in keeping US expansionist policies from coming to fruition, beating back the invading US troops in the first half of the war. However the US was victorious in defeating British troops invading US soil.
The only thing that historians do agree on is that the biggest loser at the end of the war was the native peoples. British indifference and US policies of western expansion resulted in the displacement of the natives from their lands and forced ever further west and onto marginal lands where they could barely survive.
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RDJP said:Over 320,000 killed....small, considering WW2 was going on at the time.
Look up Simo Hayha if you haven't.....he was VERY good at his job.
I think taht was total Soviet casualties. 'm not sure ( no where near my library) but the Airborne drops would have been Bn or Regiment sized at best. I don't think the Red Army ever had enough planes to doa Div drop and all their Airborne Divs fought as regular infantry.
Well aware of who Simo Hayha was. 8)
With all the attention being paid to the commemoration of the 200th anniversary of the War of 1812, we should not forget that there were other campaigns and battles along the Niagara frontier in the French and Indian Wars and the rebellions/insurrections in Upper Canada in the 1830s. However, the campaign that is largely forgotten and which can be argued cemented confederation in 1867 was the Fenian Invasions of 1866. There were actually three, however the most serious resulted in what is known as the Battle of Ridgeway. This was actually two battles, both on 2 June 1866: the first took place a short distance north of the tiny village of Ridgeway between a strong force of what was titled The Irish Republican Army made up of Civil War veterans and an ad hoc force of ill-trained and poorly equipped Canadian militia; the second was fought in the border town of Fort Erie between the same Fenians who had fought at Ridgeway and a small party of militia. Both resulted in stunning Fenian victories, in fact these were the only victories achieved by the Irish indepencen movement between 1798 and crica 1922.
A conference on the Battle of Ridgeway will be held on 2 June 2012 in the village itself. Among the events will be a conference featuring four speakers, two for each side. The Fenians have yet to be selected (or at least I don't know their names) while the British and Canadian side will be represented by Peter Vronsky, who has written the most complete account of the campaign and its aftermath ever produced, and myself. Toot! Toot! That is my horn as Dr Vronsky acknowledges that prior to his book appearing, my short study "Prepare for Cavalry" in Fighting For Canada: Seven Battles, 1758 - 1945 was one of the only two accurate accounts of the battle to appear since the late 19th century.
Further information may be found here: www.ridgewayreads.com
A conference on the Battle of Ridgeway will be held on 2 June 2012 in the village itself. Among the events will be a conference featuring four speakers, two for each side. The Fenians have yet to be selected (or at least I don't know their names) while the British and Canadian side will be represented by Peter Vronsky, who has written the most complete account of the campaign and its aftermath ever produced, and myself. Toot! Toot! That is my horn as Dr Vronsky acknowledges that prior to his book appearing, my short study "Prepare for Cavalry" in Fighting For Canada: Seven Battles, 1758 - 1945 was one of the only two accurate accounts of the battle to appear since the late 19th century.
Further information may be found here: www.ridgewayreads.com
It would be a pleasure to see you folks there. Ridgeway is my home town and I used to hike and ride my bike, and later hunt rabbits, on the battlefield. What is interesting is that the ground where the battle took place is a naturally strong defensive position, and the Fenian defence was planned accordingly. I don't think the Canadian commander - who was an auctioneer by trade - even attempted to make an estimate.
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Sunday the 3rd is the RCL St John of Norway D-Day Church Parade and Memorial Serivce here in Toronto, and as we both know the Parade Commander and he's an insufferable prick retired CSM type, the logistics may be hard to do, but I'll see.
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Danjanou said:
What better reason to be in Fort Erie/Ridgeway? Dont too many
I have a query about telegraph procedure. I know how it works and assume there also was an office procedure for sending, receiving, acknowledging and logging messages. (In early 1959 I was a student on a Signaller RCA Group 1 course and we took message centre procedure, but that was a very long time ago.) I also know that the time on a telegram is the time of transmission, or perhaps acceptance and logging in the sending station. The time that the addressee receives it could be quite a bit later, and that depends on all sorts of things.
Does anybody have any knowledge of or can point me to a source on mid-Nineteenth Century telegraph communications?
Does anybody have any knowledge of or can point me to a source on mid-Nineteenth Century telegraph communications?
J
jollyjacktar
Guest
I suppose as the Fenian's were combat veterans that put the odds highly stacked in their favour as well against "Dad's Army".Old Sweat said:
jollyjacktar said:
The Fenians were indeed combat veterans and also had done some preparations. There is all sorts of evidence that they had an intelligence organization in place and were intercepting and reading the British/Canadian telegraph messages. Don't get me going on the incompetence of our side's planning and staff work. No logistics, hell, not even packs to carry non-existant rations; no maps; no recce of the area; no staff; and no thinking that had worked down to the unit level about what to do in the case of an invasion.
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Considerable activity among Fenians in the United States in March of 1866 caused the Governor General to place some 14,000 Canadian militiamen on Active Service. This mobilization helped formulate plans to defend both Canada East and Canada West. During the call-out Canadian militia were posted at Port Colborne from 10 March through to 21 April. Units garrisoning the village were the Welland Canal Field Battery, and the rifle companies of Collingwood, Cobourg, Columbus, and Whitby.
You would think that call-out would have identified the logistical necessities required in future operations. But no!
When the QOR began to entrain at Port Dalhousie for Port Colborne, serious problems began to emerge. Believing sufficient provisions would be available at Port Colborne none had been brought from Toronto. When informed that the village, (fewer than 1,000 inhabitants) would not be able to sustain the large number of troop, it was proposed to stop the train at St Cathaibes and take on stores there. But there were no commissariat arrangements to do so.
To add to the problem, there were no cooking utensils and the men had no haversacks, knapsacks or field equipment such as entrenching tools. The regimental physician accompanied the unit, but he had no mobile hospital or staff. More importantly, only 5 rounds of ammunition per man had been issued at Toronto.
The troops arriving at Port Colborne from Hamilton and the Grand River area were no better prepared. Few men had ammunition, there was no food but some of the men were able to obtain some red herring and crackers, there was inadequate accommodation so the men slept on the railway cars.
None of the units had horses or wagons for the transport of equipment or supplies.
I wonder what "Lessons Learned" emerged from the March/April call-out?
You would think that call-out would have identified the logistical necessities required in future operations. But no!
When the QOR began to entrain at Port Dalhousie for Port Colborne, serious problems began to emerge. Believing sufficient provisions would be available at Port Colborne none had been brought from Toronto. When informed that the village, (fewer than 1,000 inhabitants) would not be able to sustain the large number of troop, it was proposed to stop the train at St Cathaibes and take on stores there. But there were no commissariat arrangements to do so.
To add to the problem, there were no cooking utensils and the men had no haversacks, knapsacks or field equipment such as entrenching tools. The regimental physician accompanied the unit, but he had no mobile hospital or staff. More importantly, only 5 rounds of ammunition per man had been issued at Toronto.
The troops arriving at Port Colborne from Hamilton and the Grand River area were no better prepared. Few men had ammunition, there was no food but some of the men were able to obtain some red herring and crackers, there was inadequate accommodation so the men slept on the railway cars.
None of the units had horses or wagons for the transport of equipment or supplies.
I wonder what "Lessons Learned" emerged from the March/April call-out?
The horror stories of poor planning and lousy staff work could fill a volume in itself. The plan as transmitted to Toronto was for a composite unit formed from the city's militia to proceed to the frontier. Instead Lieutenant Colonel J Stoughton Dennis, the Brigade Major at Toronto, called out the QOR and usurped command from the CO to lead the unit himself. That meant, of course, that he was not available at the HQ for planning and coordination. Based on his subsequent performance, that may not have been a bad thing. If he knew anything about making an estimate, he did a good job of concealing it. His plan to launch a premature attack on the Fenians led to both Ridgeway and the subsequent defeat of the Welland Canal Field Battery and the Dunnville Naval Brigade, both fighting as infantry, at Fort Erie. Not only that, but the destruction of the force landed at Fort Erie removed the means of preventing the Fenian return to US territory and self-manufactured glory.
As for ammunition, the 13th Battalion did bring extra ammunition and this helped make up the deficiencies in the other units. The unit's CO, Lieutenant Colonel Arthur Booker, took command at the ad hoc brigade at Port Colborne by reasons of seniority. He found himself in command of a brigade without a staff, and with no training above the unit level. I won't get too much further into it, other than to remark his life was ruined before noon on 2 June. The wretched Dennis, whom I described in my study of the campaign, as "energetic, persuasive and bone-headed," managed to escape censure to go on to bigger and worse things. He was appointed to conduct the survey of the Red River settlement and played a major part in provoking the Metis 1870 uprising.
I am not sure if the lessons learned from the campaign really endured as nearly 20 years later in the NW Rebellion, militiamen still had to provide their own boots and underclothing!
As for ammunition, the 13th Battalion did bring extra ammunition and this helped make up the deficiencies in the other units. The unit's CO, Lieutenant Colonel Arthur Booker, took command at the ad hoc brigade at Port Colborne by reasons of seniority. He found himself in command of a brigade without a staff, and with no training above the unit level. I won't get too much further into it, other than to remark his life was ruined before noon on 2 June. The wretched Dennis, whom I described in my study of the campaign, as "energetic, persuasive and bone-headed," managed to escape censure to go on to bigger and worse things. He was appointed to conduct the survey of the Red River settlement and played a major part in provoking the Metis 1870 uprising.
I am not sure if the lessons learned from the campaign really endured as nearly 20 years later in the NW Rebellion, militiamen still had to provide their own boots and underclothing!
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Old Sweat said:
Now, are we talking Fenian raids or Canada in Afghanistan?
The following piece from the Toronto Star provides an accurate overview of the battle that was fought a few kilometres north of Ridgeway on 2 June 1866. The author's comments re the rigged inquiries are germane. I have read the record of the one that has never been published which was into the conduct of Lieutenant Colonel J Stoughton Dennis at Fort Erie later on the same day. It includes such gems as the testimony of some troops that, as they were engaging the advancing Fenians, they heard one of their officers yell "Where the hell are you going?" and saw Dennis, who was the senior officer present, hunched over and running to the rear. In spite of this, he escaped censure.
The article is reproduced under the Fair Dealing provisions of the Copyright Act.
The last invasion and Canada’s forgotten first casualties
Published On Sat Mar 24 2012
Peter Vronsky
Earlier this month, the Americans dedicated a new memorial on the shores of the Niagara River commemorating one of the last invasions of Canada to be launched from U.S. territory.
The Fenian invasion of 1866 monument marks the point from where approximately 1,000 Irish-American Fenian insurgents invaded the Fort Erie area intending to take Canada hostage in a campaign to force the British out of Ireland. The Fenian invasion culminated on June 2, 1866, with Canada’s first modern battle, the Battle of Ridgeway, our first fought in the age of telegraph and steam railroads.
Ridgeway was the first battle fought exclusively by Canadian soldiers and led entirely by Canadian officers — no British troops participated in the combat — and it was the last battle fought against foreign invaders in what would become Ontario.
It was also an unmitigated disaster when untested Canadian troops from Hamilton and Toronto, including two rifle companies of University of Toronto student volunteers, came up against battle-hardened Irish American Civil War veterans of the Fenian “Irish Republican Army” (IRA) — the first known use of that term.
After U.S. navy gunboats cut off Fenian supply lines across the Niagara River and as Canadian and British forces began to close in, the invaders withdrew to their base in Buffalo on June 3. Many on both sides of the border credit the Fenians with cementing Canadian nationhood. These include New York State Senator Timothy Kennedy, who led the campaign to raise the monument in Buffalo’s Tow Path Park, the Niagara riverside launching point for the incursion.
“The Fenian invasion has a unique place in Buffalo’s history,” he said. “The Fenian Brotherhood, battle-hardened American veterans, first fought to keep our nation united and strong in the Civil War. Then, by launching this invasion, they significantly contributed to the national independence of Canada and eventually Ireland. The Fenian invasion demonstrated that freedom and democracy are forces that no amount of oppression can stop. Even outnumbered and outgunned, the Fenians valiantly battled the British Crown forces. They played a pivotal role in Canada’s independence, and they helped inspire Irish freedom.”
While Americans celebrated the invasion of Canada and their role in the “national independence of Canada,” most Canadians have never heard of the Battle of Ridgeway, in which the first modern Canadian soldiers were killed: nine riflemen from one of Canada’s oldest continually serving military units, Toronto’s Queen’s Own Rifles Regiment (QOR). Three of the dead were U of T students plucked from their final exams and thrown into combat the next day.
Canada’s pre-Confederation local military defence was the responsibility of the colonial minister of militia and attorney general, John A. Macdonald, and the subsequent debacle threatened his confederation plans and his ambition to lead the future Dominion of Canada’s first government.
A cabal of politicians and prominent upper class volunteer militia officers conspired to cover up the disaster through a series of military boards of inquiry. They were so successful that to this day the transcripts of the testimony in one of the inquiries have never been published, while the Battle of Ridgeway, despite being so critical in Canada’s Confederation history, is the battle that most Canadians have never heard of. Ridgeway is not commemorated, its casualties are not recognized in our National Books of Remembrance and their gravestones (scattered across southern Ontario and in Toronto) do not have National War Grave status and are uncared for by the government. A private effort by veterans of the Queen’s Own Rifles recently restored the nine abandoned gravestones that had nearly vanished in the winds and rains of the last 146 years.
The same can be said for the battlefield in the village of Ridgeway near Fort Erie. It is vanishing as housing developments threaten to swallow up the unmarked historic site. Bob Dunk, president of the Queen’s Own Rifles Association of Canada, laments, “In the United States, every site of even the smallest skirmish in the Revolutionary War or Civil War is sacred ground, cared for and protected by the National Park Service as historic national sites. Yet the ground of Ridgeway, on which Canada’s first soldiers died, except for a tiny cairn and plaque in a small far and out-of-the-way corner, are forgotten and ignored.”
Yet there is hope that Canadians will come to restore the memory of our first casualties. While plaques in the Moss Park Armoury at Queen and Jarvis Streets in Toronto where the QOR is currently stationed commemorate soldiers from the regiment who fell in every conflict Canada fought in from South Africa to Korea (75 QOR recently served in Afghanistan without casualties), only this year will a plaque finally be unveiled in memory of the “Ridgeway Nine” — the first to fall for Canada — during the scheduled royal visit in May by Prince Charles and Camilla, Duchess of Cornwall, who is currently the honourary commanding officer of the regiment.
Despite the focus on the bicentennial of the War of 1812, this year is appropriate for remembering the Battle at Ridgeway and the “last invasion” of Canada. June 2 falls on a Saturday this year, as did the battle in 1866. The town of Ridgeway, as part of its Ridgeway Reads literary festival, will be host to a conference of historians and the unveiling a new painting depicting the battle. And the QOR Association has petitioned Ontario Lieutenant Governor David Onley to help lobby Ottawa for official recognition of the “Ridgeway Nine.”
The article is reproduced under the Fair Dealing provisions of the Copyright Act.
The last invasion and Canada’s forgotten first casualties
Published On Sat Mar 24 2012
Peter Vronsky
Earlier this month, the Americans dedicated a new memorial on the shores of the Niagara River commemorating one of the last invasions of Canada to be launched from U.S. territory.
The Fenian invasion of 1866 monument marks the point from where approximately 1,000 Irish-American Fenian insurgents invaded the Fort Erie area intending to take Canada hostage in a campaign to force the British out of Ireland. The Fenian invasion culminated on June 2, 1866, with Canada’s first modern battle, the Battle of Ridgeway, our first fought in the age of telegraph and steam railroads.
Ridgeway was the first battle fought exclusively by Canadian soldiers and led entirely by Canadian officers — no British troops participated in the combat — and it was the last battle fought against foreign invaders in what would become Ontario.
It was also an unmitigated disaster when untested Canadian troops from Hamilton and Toronto, including two rifle companies of University of Toronto student volunteers, came up against battle-hardened Irish American Civil War veterans of the Fenian “Irish Republican Army” (IRA) — the first known use of that term.
After U.S. navy gunboats cut off Fenian supply lines across the Niagara River and as Canadian and British forces began to close in, the invaders withdrew to their base in Buffalo on June 3. Many on both sides of the border credit the Fenians with cementing Canadian nationhood. These include New York State Senator Timothy Kennedy, who led the campaign to raise the monument in Buffalo’s Tow Path Park, the Niagara riverside launching point for the incursion.
“The Fenian invasion has a unique place in Buffalo’s history,” he said. “The Fenian Brotherhood, battle-hardened American veterans, first fought to keep our nation united and strong in the Civil War. Then, by launching this invasion, they significantly contributed to the national independence of Canada and eventually Ireland. The Fenian invasion demonstrated that freedom and democracy are forces that no amount of oppression can stop. Even outnumbered and outgunned, the Fenians valiantly battled the British Crown forces. They played a pivotal role in Canada’s independence, and they helped inspire Irish freedom.”
While Americans celebrated the invasion of Canada and their role in the “national independence of Canada,” most Canadians have never heard of the Battle of Ridgeway, in which the first modern Canadian soldiers were killed: nine riflemen from one of Canada’s oldest continually serving military units, Toronto’s Queen’s Own Rifles Regiment (QOR). Three of the dead were U of T students plucked from their final exams and thrown into combat the next day.
Canada’s pre-Confederation local military defence was the responsibility of the colonial minister of militia and attorney general, John A. Macdonald, and the subsequent debacle threatened his confederation plans and his ambition to lead the future Dominion of Canada’s first government.
A cabal of politicians and prominent upper class volunteer militia officers conspired to cover up the disaster through a series of military boards of inquiry. They were so successful that to this day the transcripts of the testimony in one of the inquiries have never been published, while the Battle of Ridgeway, despite being so critical in Canada’s Confederation history, is the battle that most Canadians have never heard of. Ridgeway is not commemorated, its casualties are not recognized in our National Books of Remembrance and their gravestones (scattered across southern Ontario and in Toronto) do not have National War Grave status and are uncared for by the government. A private effort by veterans of the Queen’s Own Rifles recently restored the nine abandoned gravestones that had nearly vanished in the winds and rains of the last 146 years.
The same can be said for the battlefield in the village of Ridgeway near Fort Erie. It is vanishing as housing developments threaten to swallow up the unmarked historic site. Bob Dunk, president of the Queen’s Own Rifles Association of Canada, laments, “In the United States, every site of even the smallest skirmish in the Revolutionary War or Civil War is sacred ground, cared for and protected by the National Park Service as historic national sites. Yet the ground of Ridgeway, on which Canada’s first soldiers died, except for a tiny cairn and plaque in a small far and out-of-the-way corner, are forgotten and ignored.”
Yet there is hope that Canadians will come to restore the memory of our first casualties. While plaques in the Moss Park Armoury at Queen and Jarvis Streets in Toronto where the QOR is currently stationed commemorate soldiers from the regiment who fell in every conflict Canada fought in from South Africa to Korea (75 QOR recently served in Afghanistan without casualties), only this year will a plaque finally be unveiled in memory of the “Ridgeway Nine” — the first to fall for Canada — during the scheduled royal visit in May by Prince Charles and Camilla, Duchess of Cornwall, who is currently the honourary commanding officer of the regiment.
Despite the focus on the bicentennial of the War of 1812, this year is appropriate for remembering the Battle at Ridgeway and the “last invasion” of Canada. June 2 falls on a Saturday this year, as did the battle in 1866. The town of Ridgeway, as part of its Ridgeway Reads literary festival, will be host to a conference of historians and the unveiling a new painting depicting the battle. And the QOR Association has petitioned Ontario Lieutenant Governor David Onley to help lobby Ottawa for official recognition of the “Ridgeway Nine.”
Retired AF Guy
Army.ca Veteran
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Here is the Wiki page dealing with the Battle of Ridgeway.
A more patriotic version of the battle can be found here.
A more patriotic version of the battle can be found here.
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