"The stuff the army issues is useless" and "no non-issue kit over seas!"

[Brad Sallows]

Even if it does seem to be tradition that the shit end of the stick is the pointy one, there are two things which occur to me.

1) Someone must be present who is senior staff or command and able to observe differences.

2) There must be hardly a senior officer in the western tradition who, in the course of staff training or higher education, hasn't heard the tale of General Slim putting his staff on half rations.

It is strange that the two are so seldom connected with what might be the expected result.

 

[KevinB]

Someone should dig up the threads we had on the TV etc from 2004...

Fact the basicload is 10mags, add in frags, smoke, water, medical kit, batteries for your NV, IRlaser and flashlight the TV is way out of room.  C9 Gunners and M203 Grandiers are doubley hooped.

Don't winge that the troops on the ground brought up issues that defended their gear choices.

 

[Big Red]

"Suppose "normal rate" of fire, by all at once.  What is that: 10 rounds per minute?  Even with 150 rounds per soldier, that's 15 minutes!  Rapid rate is what: 20 rounds per minute?  That's 7.5 minutes of fire.  "Mad Minutes" only waste rounds, and are a pet peeve of mine!"

You think in a contact your guys are only going to be firing 20 rounds per minute?

"You stand alone, but you're never alone, to quote an old recruiting pamphlet. "

I am certain that soldiers in Iraq and Afghan have at some point found themselves "alone" even if only for a few minutes.

"And the extra five mags were in an issued piece of kit housed in the side pouch of the TV: the pouch in which the LMG gunners are "supposed" to keep a belt-box."

And where riflemen should also be carrying kit and extra ammo for the beltfeds, not magazines.

I hate to say it, but the issued gear is "pretty good", In my professional opinion. 

Time reloads wearing my pers kit vs a tacvest. Mine are faster.  Time my draws vs a draw from a flapped Bianchi holster. Reloads from that snap close pouch.

"even though they can be encrypted: GARMINs can't"

Are the sandpeople intercepting GPS now?

 

[TCBF]

Good thread - thanks to all.

"That's why most webbing was held together permanently with zap-straps and duct-tape..."

- The grass is always greener...  I was issued 1951 pattern. We were a bunch of mostly skinny sixteen year olds, and the metal hooks that went through the belt holes dug into our hip bones.  The only part we liked was the basic ('Bren Gun') pouches.  You could stow a lot of Ration RP-4 tins of Jambalaya in a Bren pouch..

The worst was always re-rigging it for patrols and such

- Then we bought (was not issued to the Mo) 1964 pattern.  Fine, but no Mag pouches for FN C1, and the C2 Bra's (Case Ammo Mag 1964) were rare... Still, upon going Regular in 76, I found that there was one thing 64 pattern was good for - it took up very little space in a Lynx. 

Large pack 1951 was replaces by Cargo Pack 1964, c/w tumpline.  Better than the 51 pat large pack, but the SB carrier built into the bottom would not hold an arctic SB, so...

Rucksack, Universal, C1 (cotton duck bag) then C2 (rubberized bag) with alice type frame, c/w bottle opener (for SMG users  ;D).  But the lower back strap was too thin and loosened, allowing the bar to bust your kidney bones - or whatever, so..

Meanwhile, tired of the velcro giving way and leaving a Brigades worth of 64 pattern web littering Bavaria..

1982 pattern webbing and pack.

The webbing: not too bad, considering it's forebears, but should have had metal fastenings instead of plastic.  The 82 ruck was a far better ruck to carry than the C2 FOR SOME BODY TYPES, but did not do well with short people, and it put the weight back on the shoulders (bad) instead of the hips (good)..  A better ruck to carry than a 'stock' C2, but a lousy one to stow or live out of.

Then, the OG TV:  So, where do we put all of our stuff?  Kandahar 2002, I ask some Patricias why they are wearing 82 pattern webbing "The TV doesn't hold enough kit." they say.  They lesson the weight of their loads by cutting brim rings from their relish hats...

Good point.  Ten mags, plus...  Not enough pouches.  Cutting shirt pockets from the chest and sewing them on the arms elicits a wave of outrage from millions watching from their living rooms...

But surely the NEW TV...?   No?

And what's this new pack they gave me?  Which pack does it replace?  How many packs are we expected to carry at once?

How are we supposed to carry 'mags, frags and water' if they fill our kit lists with camping gear?

When is 'good' , good enough?

And to think I was once 17 years old, wearing FSOD pants and shirt, pisspot helmet, 25 set on my back, FN C1, four 20 rd mags full, FIVE 60 rd rubber bandoleers of 'DA 67'  Ball, walking across Wainwright, wondering if there was some better kit out there...

The more things change...

Tom

 

[vonGarvin]

Someone said what will 2VP do.  Well once out the gate some have told me that they will ditch their authorized kit and go with what works.
God bless the RCR hierarchy.

God Bless the QR and O's

 

[vonGarvin]

You think in a contact your guys are only going to be firing 20 rounds per minute?

They better be.

I am certain that soldiers in Iraq and Afghan have at some point found themselves "alone" even if only for a few minutes.

Probably.  Even if only for a few minutes, are all the chest rigs and laser pointers going to save you?  I cannot imagine the utter horror our lads felt in Normandy, what with 60 rounds each?  How the hell did they put up with that, facing off against MG 42s spewing out rounds at well over 1000 rounds/minute? :

Time reloads wearing my pers kit vs a tacvest. Mine are faster.  Time my draws vs a draw from a flapped Bianchi holster. Reloads from that snap close pouch.

If I had the time (as you apparently have) for reloads, well.  Lets say you and me have platoons squaring off.  You've got them lasers and all that.  I've got fire discipline and musketry skills.  After about 2 minutes, you are out of ammo, we're just warming up.

Are the sandpeople intercepting GPS now?

If by "sandpeople" you mean those dudes in Star Wars, I doubt it.  GPS can and has been encrypted.  Not sure if it is today, though.  With my "jalopy" PLGR +96 in early 2001 (when they were encrypted for some reason), I knew I was at grid "x".  The candidates around me thought they were at grid "y".  Not off by much, but enough to make a difference.

 

[KevinB]

vonGarvin - from an operation experience and individual skill level you are wee bit behind Big Red.
  GPS is no longer encrypted - the CF issued the Garmin in Afghan - PLGR 96+ is scheduled to be replaced in short order.

Keep in mind the EN here tends to like ambushes - and hit and run - in order to fix them you need a large volume of fire.  Once you fix them you may destroy them.


If your such a lover of the TV etc - please give us your idea of a proper loadout?

IR lasers and NODS allow us to turn day to night - taking the fight to the enemy when they are hindered, a friend of mine took down 30+ taliban with a suppressed SPR/Mk12 rifle using a PEQ-2A and PVS-14 - inside 400m and they never knew where he was -- line up in a formed column and beat bush if ou wish but I prefer to minimise firendly exposure if we can.

It appears you have a VERY poor background in dynamic shooting - in CQB you shoot till the threat ends - that can be at a VERY high rate of fire - (semi) - We have long left the plains of Europe and Napolean behind.

 

[couchcommander]

Them's be fight'en words.....

*gets out popcorn*   

 

[vonGarvin]

vonGarvin - from an operation experience and individual skill level you are wee bit behind Big Red.
  GPS is no longer encrypted - the CF issued the Garmin in Afghan - PLGR 96+ is scheduled to be replaced in short order.
Keep in mind the EN here tends to like ambushes - and hit and run - in order to fix them you need a large volume of fire.  Once you fix them you may destroy them.
If your such a lover of the TV etc - please give us your idea of a proper loadout?
IR lasers and NODS allow us to turn day to night - taking the fight to the enemy when they are hindered, a friend of mine took down 30+ taliban with a suppressed SPR/Mk12 rifle using a PEQ-2A and PVS-14 - inside 400m and they never knew where he was -- line up in a formed column and beat bush if ou wish but I prefer to minimise firendly exposure if we can.
It appears you have a VERY poor background in dynamic shooting - in CQB you shoot till the threat ends - that can be at a VERY high rate of fire - (semi) - We have long left the plains of Europe and Napolean behind.

The news re: GPS is indeed that for me. 
As for "individual skill level" lacking behind Big Red: I don't know him, and he doesn't know me: sounds like a generalisation on someone's part.  Let's keep it on track
As for the TV: nothing is ever going to please everyone.  But let's get serious: do we REALLY need all those chest rigs, etc?  Some may need them, but I highly doubt that your run of the mill soldier "over there" is gonna need all that crap.  My load for it?  Depends on the job at hand.  The TV is an improvement over the LBV, and certainly over previous versions of webbing, load bearing gear, whatever. 
You have to ask the question: what do I need?  Determine the need on what's most likely to happen, NOT every eventuality.  This whole thing reminds me of a guy who was apparently a POW in WWII.  He escaped, came across an aircraft "just sitting there", and used that as an argument that everyone should learn to fly a plane "just in case".  Or the other fellow who said we should all carry ladders so that we can enter into the upper floor of buildings "just in case".  If you cover every eventuality, you'll soon find yourself bogged down with unnecessary crap.  You can only fit so much meat into a sandwich.
The solution?  Everyone has their role.  Take the bare minimum: the rifle section, with or without LAV.  Some have LMGs.  Some have Rifles.  Some have M203s.  And on and on.
As for your friend and 30+ Taliban: nice on him.  I know all about IR lasers, MNVGs etc etc turning night into day for us.  It's great.  I've used them and they rock.  They were all issue. 
Now, assume the ambush scenario.  An IED goes off, triggering the whole thing.  Shocked, our troops are now being fired on with small arms at whatever range.  We shoot back.  If our guys go full auto: they hit squat.  Well, bullets have to hit something, but I doubt it's what they are aiming at.  Perhaps your whole sunglasses-wearing, backwards baseball cap sporting "dynamic shooting" is what it's all about.  Maybe its the whole Shoot to Live programme implemented correctly.  The point is: it's not the tool, it's the person using the tool.  Skillsets are what sets the conditions for success.  We may not be engaging at 300m +, and that's fine.  You're right about large amount of effective fire fixing the enemy, but once they are pinned (assuming you are successful in that), your volume of fire can be reduced in order to manoeuvre to finish them off.  Assuming that they actually stick around. 
Now, I realise that this is not Europe (see my earlier post).  If this were, then the troops would have 30 magazines each to fight off the hordes.
I doubt that there have been many sustained battles throughout history in which those in contact didn't have to go back to the Q and get more ammo.  It may be true that we don't carry enough, but let's face it, do you really need all that crap?  I mean, really.  To say that the TV is utterly useless is, in my professional opinion, unprofessional.  It wasn't developed in a vacuum.  The troops with whom I've served found it to serve their needs.  Is there better stuff out there?  Certainly!  Will we get better stuff?  You betcha.  Is the situation so bad that troops must go out and buy their own?  I highly doubt it. 

 

[DBA]

vonGarvin - from an operation experience and individual skill level you are wee bit behind Big Red.
  GPS is no longer encrypted - the CF issued the Garmin in Afghan - PLGR 96+ is scheduled to be replaced in short order.

The main GPS signal isn't degraded anymore (SA or Selective Availability was turned off or set to zero) so receivers don't need access to the encrypted signal channel data to get full accuracy. However that encrypted data also provides anti-spoofing protection which is not in these civilian devices. The US has already stated they may degrade GPS on a regional basis so having military GPS units available that will still function properly in such a situation would be disireable.

 

[Recce41]

Christ Fellas
Soldiers have been complaining about kit since Hannibal. It's nothing new. Yes the old desert boots don't cut it. But the new one are much better. They are made by Corran and look like the blk ones, but tan. As for chest rigs remember, we buy kit that is suitable for our all round needs. NATO issue is 5 Mags and before that, It was 5 in WW1 for my Grandfathers, and 5 in WW2/Korea for my Father/Uncles and F in L . I phoned my Uncles just to ask him. He told me, the SSM/SM would issue you 5 mags. And If you waited more you just stole, found, or asked. You had to carry them in your pockets, bag, etc.
He said only the Sten/Bren gunners got more. But If you were a Enfield guy. You had to do what you had. So it's nothing new as stated. I'll will not buy my own kit. I have pockets, a Army GPS that is great (learn how to use it, if you don't), Have walked many a mile on the old Desert and Juggle boot, and the old Mk3s. I do have Danners/ Matterhorns that were issued, they were to be issued to all. The problem is Afghanistan is a low tech country, fought with high tech soldiers.
I read a book from the Afghan War. It had a Russian soldier state. The Afghans can march a 100 miles with sandals and wooden packs, and fight us all day. We cannot march 20 miles with our boots and rucks sacks and fight.  We are fighting a modern battle on the ground of the caveman.
They were there under the same conditions. Must tell you something.

 

[mz589]

An article in Infantry Journal regarding the famous photo of the soldier outside the aid station (his M1 carbine is clearly visible), and correspondence with Art Johnson, who served in both 1 and 2 RCR as a rifleman.  What was your dad's job, incidentally, if you don't mind my asking?

Sure, no problem Michael.

He was a rifleman and a section leader first with 9 and then I believe 8 platoon, after his year was up he and a few other NCOs remained behind for an extra month to help 1 RCR get acclimated.

In reference to this I just got off the phone with him and he can recall a M-1 Carbine being "scrounged" with a night vision scope on it. He also mentioned 30 calibre Brownings and Bazookas being scavenged, American 45s were also a popular item. At any rate he said that he doesn't recall anyone using them (M-1s) but that it was certainly possible, he did say that the guys from 1RCR seemed to like the US weapons.

Since he is going by memories from 50+ years its hard to say how accurate any of this is.

I went through his photo albums to see if I could shed some light on things but I don't see any weapons in the photos except for a .30 cal Browning.

Thanks for bringing this point up Michael, its an interesting footnote. I'd love to know just how common "scrounging" when it came to the .303, my father was/is a die-hard Lee Enfield guy.

 

[mz589]

Check out a book, Blood on the Hills, by David Bercuson, for more on Canadians using American weapons in Korea.  Lots of good photos/info on the issue, including officers using Yankee stuff.

ciao

Thank you for that, I will do so.

 

[DG-41]

You can't simply pull apart the TV and resew it.

Isn't that what one of the aftermarket guys did?

I don't remember what the name of the company is (I'm sure one of the Gucci Gods here will) but it seems to me that at least one of the aftermarket rigs is the issue tac vest design fitted with a standard modular attachment system like MOLLE.

DG

 

[buzgo]

I think that Dropzone makes a MOLLE panel that fits onto the Tacvest. Also, there are photos of people with modded tv's, with DZ pouches attached on the combat camera site... It was mentioned here before.

 

[KevinB]

sigh - It really is not worth my time.  Keep toeing the oarty line I'm sure your career will flourish while your subordinates pay for it in blood.

 

[Kal]

IR lasers and NODS allow us to turn day to night - taking the fight to the enemy when they are hindered, a friend of mine took down 30+ taliban with a suppressed SPR/Mk12 rifle using a PEQ-2A and PVS-14 - inside 400m and they never knew where he was

Dude, I told you that in confidence and asked you not to tell that story...  You're out of my trust tree. ;D

 

[vonGarvin]

sigh - It really is not worth my time.  Keep toeing the oarty line I'm sure your career will flourish while your subordinates pay for it in blood.

Get real.  Troops will not live (when they would otherwise die) because they have some jammy MOLLE vest on.

 

[KevinB]

Have you tried to speed load out of the TV -- MJP had some nice video - same with getting frags out, and yes when your are underfire seconds can and do count.

I understand you have a very closed mind based on your "experience" -  Unlike you, the guys in question are putting it on the line - try for once to stop the "painting the rock's cuz" mentality. 


Kal -- unless your a bearded 6'4" former 18B that I work with I doubt it...

 

[Michael Dorosh]

NATO issue is 5 Mags and before that, It was 5 in WW1 for my Grandfathers, and 5 in WW2/Korea for my Father/Uncles and F in L . I phoned my Uncles just to ask him. He told me, the SSM/SM would issue you 5 mags. And If you waited more you just stole, found, or asked. You had to carry them in your pockets, bag, etc.
He said only the Sten/Bren gunners got more. But If you were a Enfield guy. You had to do what you had. So it's nothing new as stated.

Lee Enfield users got ONE mag each - they reloaded from 5 round chargers. G1098 allotment was 60 rounds per rifleman - 6 mags, in other words.

Doctrine has changed since then, so its a bit irrelevant recce; most riflemen didn't fire their weapons in WW II during combat - with the increase in firepower afforded by semi-autos and full-autos, that has changed.  A WW II rifle section relied on the Bren Gun. The Enfield guys probably didn't shoot much.