"The stuff the army issues is useless" and "no non-issue kit over seas!"

[medaid]

Now believe it or not, we're (ICE) in the process of designing rucks in CADPAT in the British SAS ParaBergen Style and the style that was posted for Arc'Teryx. The funny thing was that packs and cold weather/layers are what my boss does best! He came from a backpacking background, and to him, the 64 pattern is archaic, and I don't disagree with him. The thing is, we went the 64 pattern route because there were no other "approved" rucks that the RSMs/CSMs/WO/Sgt would accept over the 82. Trust me, if we got a pack design going, it would've been a nice one. We just need the CoC to trial it for them selves and then say "Yay, ICE ruck GTG" Speaking of which... any takers for T&E?  ;D

 

[Bomber]

Anyone from Shilo interested in commenting on their rucks today or tomorrow?  See you all in Edmonton next week to teach you how to assemble, wear, and use your new rucks.

 

[medaid]

Many designs start out as COT prototypes and are then modified.  I think what you're hitting on is the "good enough" concept and wether a COT design meets CF requirements without the whole modification process.  Obviously there are a lot of good manufactures out there, several of which post on these boards.  Do they make the cut?  Can new designs get on the approved list?  Who approves?   

That's exactly it. We need a section formed up of different personnel from different branches to just T&E equipment. No freaking design genius need apply. TRIAL: beat it to crap and put it through its paces EVAL: get what you like and don't like on paper. If it can be addressed it would be, if not, move on to the next product.

Indeed.... it all comes down to who approves... CTS? They approve everything that's theirs.... so essentially they're both biased AND useless.

Which then goes back to the often quoted tale of the RSM that wants every soldier wearing the same boot.  No matter how much your plan makes sense, I seriously doubt that it would go as far as you would like.  The US boot purchasing system makes sense...different boots for different feet.  But extending that to load-bearing vests, rucks, etc., in the eyes of the Devil's Advocate, flys in the face of the whole concept of "uniform".  Personally, I feel that if it works, use it...especially when your life is on the line.  Just convince that RSM with the throbbing forehead vein, the procurement system that takes a year (or more) to make a decision and all of the COT business that are more than
willing to file the inevitable lawsuit when they don't make the final cut.  Kit should be about functionality - unfortunately that seems to be trumped by several other factors, none of which anyone here has a huge amount of control over.  You can guide the elephant, but it sits down when it wants to.

The US already allows their troops to buy their OWN rigs and packs, they don't care about uniformity in the field as much as we apparently do. They all look the same either way, if it's the Army, their parameters are ACU? Good to go. For the MARINES it's Coyote Brown or MARPAT, good to go. For the AIRFORCE, it's TAN, CB or the new fugly ACP then it's good to go. The Deltas have their MultiCam. We need to move away from garrison uniformity, because a battle field is NOT a garrison. When you are on ops, or you are training up for ops, it's time to let the chicken sh^t go. Because eventually they're going to cave in theater, so why not train with it, get used to it, and when you are out side of the wire you're more effective with your kit? Like I said, why are we always doing things ass backwards when it comes to personal gear?

Just try getting it in olive drab.    :-\  Can anyone confirm the story of MEC balking on certain "military-inspired" colours? 

They do. Just not on all the ones we'd like them to. Very limited CAG and CBness is available...

 

[Scoobie Newbie]

Nothing like taking 10 years to re-invent the wheel.  And that is exactly what CTS does.

 

[Scoobie Newbie]

You would be hard pressed to tell one Arid Cadpat rig from another 20 feet away.

 

[medaid]

Exactly my point LWQ, no one cares! It's ALL ARID! If it's being made from DND approved material i.e. CADPAT AR, what's wrong with it? "Well some material aren't the same specs, they're not IR, they are not this, they are not that" honestly? It doesn't matter. Because all of that lovely IR feature is going to be effected by the sand... It's going to be polished off and out of the fabric anyways... Oh well what do I know right? I don't work for CTS...

 

[RCR Grunt]

We don't need a department to do this at all, each unit can decide what they need.  Each unit has its own collection of "kit whores" who know more about who makes what and how well it works, and if not the internet is your friend.  Forums such as this one and the others are a wealth of information regarding equipment.  Gather your "kit whores" in one room, make a list of kit that is acceptable for use for your unit, disperse this list to the troops, they go into QM and "order" what they want. 

Or, have a list, troops buy what they want from the list, troops get reimbursed with an opportunity to repurchase in 2 fiscal years or upon promotion to a new rank level (i.e. Sergeants don't really carry C9's anymore, but they might carry more comms / maps / GPS type gear)

Of course, all this gear would be in CADPAT, so in effect we would all look the same, but still be different.

I dunno if that makes much sense ... its all part of the "xxxxxxx xxxxxxx Defense reform Plan," which I really must put onto paper one of these days.

 

[sjm]

Firstly, posting on Army.ca is not an Olympic Event, 6,142 wow, I just crapped myself.

Having just returned from "A", all I wore was issue kit.  Being with the OMLT I was allowed to wear anything I wanted as long as under it all somewhere was the arrid cadpat.  The tacvest was phenomenal, my old issue ruck couldn't be a better fit.  We were regularly given stuff to trial.  I still have 4 pairs of prototype ballistic goggles that I have yet to eval.

Someone suggested we just buy stuff and have the troops eval it.  Good luck!  You'll have better luck finding troops at the voluntary dental clinic.  I work 3 floors directly above the DLR types starving for evaluations, have I responded directly to them, no CoC involved at all.  Of course not.  How many troops have actually filled in those IMP evals?  And no I don't want to hear from those that did reply.  Point is the troops don't eval because it's been demonstrated over many decades that they don't care.

Eventually all the kit you're issued will approach the standards to which the average Army.ca "user" aspires... a uniformed BlackWater employee.  I hear their benifits suck though.

Someone wants a bigger ruck?  Are you planning on actually patrolling with this bohemoth or just using it as a carry on bag when the BlackHawk lifts you in and out of MSG?  Having patrolled on foot regularly with the ANA big is a bad thing.  I was cutting links off my dog tag chain to save weight.  Why do you really think we only load 28 rounds in a 30 round mag?  To keep the springs fresh?  I could get new mags every week if I wanted...it was to save weight!

The only guy who carried more kit than me was the poor sod that hauled the portable ECM, and he never hauled it 14km to be sure.

From what I saw our replacements were under a strict issue only kit policy, the biggest complaint I heard was about the JR Nicols holster.  A real show stopper that one!

A soldier shall never be denied the right to complain, but the whining stays at home.

Soldier on

later

 

[medaid]

No it makes sense. At home and abroad. Uniformity on a parade square. What works in the field.

 

[MG34]

SJM: Way to toe the party line, the Tac vest is phenominal compared to what exactly?? I would hazard a guess you have not tried anything else except for maybe  82 pattern web gear and the jean jacket vest??
The CF tacvest is one of the biggest pieces of crap ever issued to a standing army, yet some of the lees informed of us still contend it is a good piece of kit, I suggest that you and the rest of your ilk get educated on what is out there,perhaps the blinders will be lifted.

 

[MikeL]

Anyone from Shilo interested in commenting on their rucks today or tomorrow?  See you all in Edmonton next week to teach you how to assemble, wear, and use your new rucks.

Just got mine this morning the rucks seem alright, but untill we actually get to use them a bit(for morning PT, etc) I  got no real comment on them yet.  Only thing I really got to set it up for is the BFT(after did mine for this tour, so have to wait till next year for another); I never ruck anywhere in the field, just toss it the vehicle an roll out or it stays under my cot.

 

[aesop081]

Firstly, posting on Army.ca is not an Olympic Event, 6,142 wow, I just crapped myself.

Nice way to start your post there sport.  :

 

[Jarnhamar]

The tacvest was phenomenal, my old issue ruck couldn't be a better fit. 
I was cutting links off my dog tag chain to save weight. 
Why do you really think we only load 28 rounds in a 30 round mag?  To keep the springs fresh?  I could get new mags every week if I wanted...it was to save weight!

LOL
Whaaaaaat?  :
Rucksack back anyone?

So you denied yourself 20 rounds out of your 10 mags to save weight? Is that a wise thing to do? You're given 10 mags for a reason, if the army wanted you to go into battle with 9 mags they would have issued you 9 wouldn't they have?
You should cut your tooth brush in half or something to save weight instead.

That post made my week, cheers.

 

[sjm]

I don't recall having to pay anything for my TacVest and at the end of the day it did everything I expected it to do.  I got to try on about 10 different rigs from guys trying to flog their wares and none of it justified spending my valuable dime.  One might try to deduct the cost on their income taxes since it might qualify as a work related expense.

The rigs I saw allowed the wearers to carry no more kit than I required to do my job.  One of the rigs had a real sexy drop down portable office on the chest but I don't do paperwork on the go.  It's just a personal thing.

Can the kit be better? sure and a big juicy pay hike wouldn't bite the bag either but we got what we got.

 

[Scoobie Newbie]

I don't recall anyone suggesting they wanted a bigger ruck.  They want a rug that is comfortable under load.  Oh and I do put 28 rounds in the mag to ease the springs and allow the mags to work better.

 

[sjm]

Yo Flawed Design;

I probably humped close to 500km, and a tooth brush didn't accompany me for 1 meter of those 500km.

 

[medaid]

Eventually all the kit you're issued will approach the standards to which the average Army.ca "user" aspires... a uniformed BlackWater employee.  I hear their benifits suck though.

Yes, you're absolutely correct! EVENTUALLY! by the time that the kit that's issued approach the standard that we need now, it'll be OUT of date, once more. Everyone else will be using powered armour, and we'll STILL be stuck with CTS crap. I don't aspire to be a BlackWater employee. I never did and I never will. What I inspire to be is a troop who
can actively engage if need be, when all the combat arms types have fallen, the enemy. I inspire to do so, effectively, and quickly winning the fire fight. Having 4 mags, does NOT allow me to win any freaking fire fight! Maybe if they guy that's charging at me was on a donkey, and had nothing but a lance. But as we all know, that's not the case now is it?

Someone wants a bigger ruck? 

How bout not BIGGER, but think BETTER? The issued rucks SUCK. Even if we were to patrol with bigger rucks, as long as they are BETTER, with all the proper weight bearing points, and the freaking wire frame doesnt twist and bend then I'll take that BIGGER ruck any day. why? Because it'll be BETTER.

From what I saw our replacements were under a strict issue only kit policy, the biggest complaint I heard was about the JR Nicols holster.

Could that be because that most people were wearing NON-issued kit to start with?

A soldier shall never be denied the right to complain, but the whining stays at home.

Most of us are at home... and isn't Canada home? So why can't we criticize and evaluate critically the crap kit that WE have to work with overseas?

Soldier on

That's exaclty the attitude that makes new troops not visit the MIR. The old school mentality has to stop sometimes... now is good as ever with kit don't you think? It's universally agreed upon that we have SH^TTY personal kit...

But that's just my 0.02 rupees, take it as you will.

 

[Jarnhamar]

I don't recall anyone suggesting they wanted a bigger ruck.  They want a rug that is comfortable under load.  Oh and I do put 28 rounds in the mag to ease the springs and allow the mags to work better.

Thats because you're used to plastic mags

I'd personally love to have a bigger ruck. It doesn't mean I'll have to carry more it means I'll be able to fit all the gear I have to carry now, better.

 

[Nfld Sapper]

It IS NOT being replaced. See the CTS update ppt that I provided earlier in this thread; begin at page 24 for the rucksack. See the PIP on the CTS website.

Entitlement:

"Issued on IA to Reg/Res dismounted pers working away from vehicles or camps for in excess of 24 hours."

See particularily slide # 31. There is no intention "on the table" to eventually field these to other pers besides those who conduct dismounted ops. None. There was NO intention of such stated at any CLS WGs I've attended on the issue either.

Slide 31:

The above is taken directly from CTSs official update briefing.

Got a question on that Vern would that mean most if not all Reserve Field units will be getting this? Or is there a set list as to who is entitled to it?

 

[Scoobie Newbie]

I believe the priorty would be those going oversea's doing dismounted ops etc then once there are enougth to kit all of them would be the groups going out the door next, followed by Reg force Cmbt arms frontline units etc.

sjm good on you for making do with crappy kit.  Me I'll look for ways to carry whats required for the mission while being as comfortable as possible.  As far as aftermarket chest rigs I have no idea whose you were looking at but the good ones are more comfortable, can carry more stuff and are more flexible to the user because they are modular.