The Haiti Super Thread- Merged
- Thread starter Sh0rtbUs
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So why not put out the fire before it burns down the house?
Of course it seems as though president Artiside could possibly be corrupt, so perhaps a political approach could be taken.
There are hints of this being a similar situation to that which took place in Liberia with Charles Taylor, although Artiside seems less brutal then Taylor was, if he is corrupt he should step down and in theory that would end the uprising.
You have to ask yourself if this is an uprising against a corrupt government, or an uprising of a minority against the majority.
Of course it seems as though president Artiside could possibly be corrupt, so perhaps a political approach could be taken.
There are hints of this being a similar situation to that which took place in Liberia with Charles Taylor, although Artiside seems less brutal then Taylor was, if he is corrupt he should step down and in theory that would end the uprising.
You have to ask yourself if this is an uprising against a corrupt government, or an uprising of a minority against the majority.
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I can think of no good reason to send troops to Haiti.
The country is having a completely domestic political problem. It is tragic that this will no doubt have an adverse effect on the civilian population caught in the middle. That said, it is irresponsible and dangerous to place "peacekeepers" or any other troops in harms way for a conflict that is clearly in the earliest stages and which is rapidly deteriorating into a full blown civil war.
It‘s a matter for the people of Haiti to sort out for themselves as to who and how they want their country run.
When the shooting is over and they need assistance is reestablishing order and democracy, THAT is the time, in my opinion, when the world can best help and make the most use of its resources.
In general, I do not advocate any interference with sovereign nations without just cause. Just cause is not simply because a nation is having problems keeping law and order. A just cause would be sponsored terrorism (Iraq, Afghanistan), ethnic cleansing (Former Yugoslavia, et al), or humanitarian assistance in the absence of any form of government whatsoever (Somalia). Additionally, if the conflict involved more than one country, then it should certainly become a matter for the UN to resolve through demilitarization, de-escalation, and intervention with peacekeepers.
Haiti doesn‘t meet any of these criteria, and as has been pointed out already, we‘ve been there before.
Once the country has decided, through either a political solution, or a coup d‘etat, who they want running the show, then is the time to step in and offer a hand.
The country is having a completely domestic political problem. It is tragic that this will no doubt have an adverse effect on the civilian population caught in the middle. That said, it is irresponsible and dangerous to place "peacekeepers" or any other troops in harms way for a conflict that is clearly in the earliest stages and which is rapidly deteriorating into a full blown civil war.
It‘s a matter for the people of Haiti to sort out for themselves as to who and how they want their country run.
When the shooting is over and they need assistance is reestablishing order and democracy, THAT is the time, in my opinion, when the world can best help and make the most use of its resources.
In general, I do not advocate any interference with sovereign nations without just cause. Just cause is not simply because a nation is having problems keeping law and order. A just cause would be sponsored terrorism (Iraq, Afghanistan), ethnic cleansing (Former Yugoslavia, et al), or humanitarian assistance in the absence of any form of government whatsoever (Somalia). Additionally, if the conflict involved more than one country, then it should certainly become a matter for the UN to resolve through demilitarization, de-escalation, and intervention with peacekeepers.
Haiti doesn‘t meet any of these criteria, and as has been pointed out already, we‘ve been there before.
Once the country has decided, through either a political solution, or a coup d‘etat, who they want running the show, then is the time to step in and offer a hand.
D
Duotone81
Guest
Portcullisguy,
I agree 100%. However that is the common sense thing to do and common sense and national interests rarely occupy the same room. Have to wait and see how this one unfolds.
I agree 100%. However that is the common sense thing to do and common sense and national interests rarely occupy the same room. Have to wait and see how this one unfolds.
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One quick question before sending in troops. Who would you support? The oppressive government or the lawless rebels? Arguments could be made for both sides and sending Canadians into the middle and hoping for the best would likely only end up in a few of our guys coming back in boxes and a very temporary break in fighting.
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I don‘t know if the rebels actually have a plan to put in government, I think their action is a way of pressuring Artiside to resign and for new free uncorrupt elections.
Which is probably why the diplomatic approach would be best, and perhaps Artiside will step aside a-la Liberia.
Which is probably why the diplomatic approach would be best, and perhaps Artiside will step aside a-la Liberia.
J
jimbunting
Guest
Gentlemen:
Lets consider, for a moment, the history of Hati.
Over ther past 200 years, there have been 35 military revolts, resulting ina change of government about every SIX YEARS! The Hatians are living in great poverty, precisely because of that history. They are once again killing each other, with great glee, as it allows the settling of old scores.
I suggest that Canada along with all the other suggested "intervenors" stay out, and after the opposing sides have killed each other enough, the remainder might benefit from some "anger management classes".
Seriously, this nation (Hati) is not somewhere that we should be involved. The people of Hati have shown that they cannot maintain a semblance of peace, even for a few years at a time.
Jim Bunting. Toronto.
Lets consider, for a moment, the history of Hati.
Over ther past 200 years, there have been 35 military revolts, resulting ina change of government about every SIX YEARS! The Hatians are living in great poverty, precisely because of that history. They are once again killing each other, with great glee, as it allows the settling of old scores.
I suggest that Canada along with all the other suggested "intervenors" stay out, and after the opposing sides have killed each other enough, the remainder might benefit from some "anger management classes".
Seriously, this nation (Hati) is not somewhere that we should be involved. The people of Hati have shown that they cannot maintain a semblance of peace, even for a few years at a time.
Jim Bunting. Toronto.
- Reaction score
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Why don‘t the countries who have a primary interest in local stability start cleaning their own neighbourhood? The Govt‘s of Dominican Rep, Jamaica and other Caribbean countries should be the first ones to step up to the plate. With a much deeper insight with regards to local customs, traditions, language and other ethnic hang ups these folks could do much more than North American and European soldiers can.
This doesn‘t seem like much more than bitter enders, common criminals and thugs furthering their own interests. By tagging it with terms like Revolution, Military revolt or uprising it tends to add a legitimacy that this is clearly lacking.
This doesn‘t seem like much more than bitter enders, common criminals and thugs furthering their own interests. By tagging it with terms like Revolution, Military revolt or uprising it tends to add a legitimacy that this is clearly lacking.
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I don‘t think that many Carribean countries have the means or manpower to step up and help, they have a full plate of their own problems to deal with, without worrying about what the Hatians are up to.
The countries that should be helping out are the ones who colonised this region then left, in this case France.
I think that it has some sense of legitamacy; obviously there are some thugs taking advantage of a situation. Artiside is corrupt, he tampered with elections and uses his civilian police to oppress oppposition.
The countries that should be helping out are the ones who colonised this region then left, in this case France.
I think that it has some sense of legitamacy; obviously there are some thugs taking advantage of a situation. Artiside is corrupt, he tampered with elections and uses his civilian police to oppress oppposition.
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F$ck it, I say we just go and take over the place. Go and clean house in the DR too, make the whole **** island the newest province.
Chances are a large lot of them will wind up "fleeing" to Toronto and wind up living off the Canadian (taxpayer‘s)teat anyway. Might as well annex some sunshine and beach while they‘re at it.
Chances are a large lot of them will wind up "fleeing" to Toronto and wind up living off the Canadian (taxpayer‘s)teat anyway. Might as well annex some sunshine and beach while they‘re at it.
J
jimbunting
Guest
MAURADER:
I sure hope you were kidding about that?
TO THE REST OF YOU:
Remember that the Hatians speak FRENCH, not English. So how effective would the Jamaicans be? I think the reason that Hati is so prone to armed conflict is simple.
It is the poorest country in the Western Hemisphere, with the highest HIV AIDS levels, the lowest litteracy rate, and the worst civil rights record, combined with lousy ecomomics, and no history of lawful or peaceful government.
As an aside, many Hatians have fled, over the years, to other Carribbean countries, such as The Bahamas, where there are over 50,000 illegal Hatian regugees. Some have lived there for most of their lives, but are stateless, with no legal status in the Bahamas. They are rounded up every so often and shipped back to Hati, by the Bahamian government.
Jim Bunting. Toronto.
I sure hope you were kidding about that?
TO THE REST OF YOU:
Remember that the Hatians speak FRENCH, not English. So how effective would the Jamaicans be? I think the reason that Hati is so prone to armed conflict is simple.
It is the poorest country in the Western Hemisphere, with the highest HIV AIDS levels, the lowest litteracy rate, and the worst civil rights record, combined with lousy ecomomics, and no history of lawful or peaceful government.
As an aside, many Hatians have fled, over the years, to other Carribbean countries, such as The Bahamas, where there are over 50,000 illegal Hatian regugees. Some have lived there for most of their lives, but are stateless, with no legal status in the Bahamas. They are rounded up every so often and shipped back to Hati, by the Bahamian government.
Jim Bunting. Toronto.
- Reaction score
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JimBunting,
Here is a novel idea. Stop fighting, stop screwing without condoms, stay in school, don‘t blow all of you US$4 weekly income on pot, stop breaking the law and maybe you might not have the poorest country in the Western hemisphere.
Education, Education, Education. How about a free box of condoms for every gun turned in. Learn how your goverment works, how economics function and how to improve your own quality of life. Get the intellegentsia (sp) into positions of authority. Get backdoor shenanigans from outside interest (read USA, Canada, UK, etc) from posting their puppets into office to cease.
Jamaicans, Bahamians probably have a much deeper insight into local customs and historical events than do remote North Americans. A bit of "coup de main" from neighbours will go a long way as opposed to yet more cash from rich USA or others.
Maybe I‘m oversymplifying but this is a vicious circle that they need to stop themselves first.
Slainte,
Here is a novel idea. Stop fighting, stop screwing without condoms, stay in school, don‘t blow all of you US$4 weekly income on pot, stop breaking the law and maybe you might not have the poorest country in the Western hemisphere.
Education, Education, Education. How about a free box of condoms for every gun turned in. Learn how your goverment works, how economics function and how to improve your own quality of life. Get the intellegentsia (sp) into positions of authority. Get backdoor shenanigans from outside interest (read USA, Canada, UK, etc) from posting their puppets into office to cease.
Jamaicans, Bahamians probably have a much deeper insight into local customs and historical events than do remote North Americans. A bit of "coup de main" from neighbours will go a long way as opposed to yet more cash from rich USA or others.
Maybe I‘m oversymplifying but this is a vicious circle that they need to stop themselves first.
Slainte,
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Padraig,
Your intentions are noble and the situation you describe mirrors any one of dozens of third world countries. The common ground many of them share is most have all, at one time or another, been official or unofficial colonies of Western nations. Are you proposing that we pull all support save for humanitarian aid? Again, a noble concept but I don‘t think this will solve the problem. In my view, countries such as Haiti have a small part of the population who have seen the other side of the fence, namely the Western way of living with big cars and lots of money. And then there‘s the majority of said populations who are really only concerned with putting food on the table and finding fire wood to keep warm. Mix this pot up and you have a few factions fighting to gain the Western way of living while the rest of the population is caught in the middle. It‘s a catch 22, get involved and inevitably your only hindering a country‘s growth, don‘t get involved and watch them kill each other. Am I oversimplifying things? Probably, but the formula I just described seems all to common these days.
I agree with you that to a certain extent, we need to let these countries grow on their own. The problem is, as a "civilized" society (I use that term loosely), are we willing to stand by and watch them destroy themselves only so that they can finally figure out that they are better off working together for their own common good?
Your intentions are noble and the situation you describe mirrors any one of dozens of third world countries. The common ground many of them share is most have all, at one time or another, been official or unofficial colonies of Western nations. Are you proposing that we pull all support save for humanitarian aid? Again, a noble concept but I don‘t think this will solve the problem. In my view, countries such as Haiti have a small part of the population who have seen the other side of the fence, namely the Western way of living with big cars and lots of money. And then there‘s the majority of said populations who are really only concerned with putting food on the table and finding fire wood to keep warm. Mix this pot up and you have a few factions fighting to gain the Western way of living while the rest of the population is caught in the middle. It‘s a catch 22, get involved and inevitably your only hindering a country‘s growth, don‘t get involved and watch them kill each other. Am I oversimplifying things? Probably, but the formula I just described seems all to common these days.
I agree with you that to a certain extent, we need to let these countries grow on their own. The problem is, as a "civilized" society (I use that term loosely), are we willing to stand by and watch them destroy themselves only so that they can finally figure out that they are better off working together for their own common good?
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