The Great Gun Control Debate

[Sheerin]

Had this loser know there was a chance of a citizen ending his days, then and there, he may have rethought his intent. As much as the hoplophobes would like to impress on the uneducated, CCW is not just about mowing down innocent bystanders. It's as much about intimidation of the bad guy, in that he doesn't know who is armed and is willing to stand up to him. Bad guys are empowered by sheeple, but wolves seldom venture where there may be a sheep dog present. This guy held 36 people at bay until the cops eventually arrived. Had he kicked out the window of the bus straight away, to gain egress, the count could have been higher.

So that's the reason why US states with CCW laws have crime rate of zero.....

It's entirely possible that the attacker wanted to be killed that evening... suicide by cop perhaps?

There are many variables.  Personally I don't know if CCW laws would have averted this tragedy, I just don't think i'm comfortable with an armed populace.  

 

[Bruce Monkhouse]

It's entirely possible that the attacker wanted to be killed that evening... suicide by cop perhaps?

Yea, and I would be happy to oblique him....

I just don't think i'm comfortable with an armed populace.  

But they are, well at least the irresponsible, non law abiding ones............

[and, for the record, I hate guns, but I love reality]

 

[BernDawg]

First off I offer my condolences to the young victims family.

Now to chime in on the CCW.  I support CCW and think that any one with the right amount of approved training should be allowed to obtain a permit and be registered withe proper authorities.  There have even been cases in the US where mass murder attempts have been thwarted by such armed civilians but they are hard to find because the MSM doesn't like to print them.  There have been a few discussed on these threads IIRC.
I believe that with the training that some of us have that the young victim would have had a chance.  For the naysayers that believe he may have died from the wounds already received I say we could have furthered his chances of survival due to our annual FA training.
I also believe that this case calls for the death penalty.  Even though he may be "sick" we should be rid of the threat of his re-offending because he probably wouldn't benefit from the Lib/NDP hug and make up theory of justice.

 

[Fishbone Jones]

So that's the reason why US states with CCW laws have crime rate of zero.....

It's entirely possible that the attacker wanted to be killed that evening... suicide by cop perhaps?

There are many variables.  Personally I don't know if CCW laws would have averted this tragedy, I just don't think i'm comfortable with an armed populace.  

No, it's not zero, but it's a hell of a lot less than places with stringent gun controls like DC and Chicago. There's lots of stats favouring CCW as opposed to not. If you want to start a pissing contest on that, feel free. You may be uncomfortable with an armed populace, but I'm more concerned with only armed bad guys on the street. I'd rather see some 150lb woman explaining why she shot a 240lb rapist attacking her, than the cops investigating her dead corpse. Our LEOs do a fantastic job, but you can't carry one in your pocket. Right now, it's 'To serve and investigate' as opposed to 'Serve and Protect'. The Charter gives me the right to self defence, up to and including deadly force, but it's a moot point as they won't allow you the tools to do it.

 

[Umoja]

"Remember that those who CCW will all have some weapons and shooting training...."

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm pretty sure that this is not always the case.  I know in the States, there are only some states that require carriers to participate in a training course.  More often than not, I think that a large portion of people carrying CWs will not have the necessary or adequate training to handle the weapon safely.

In this case, carrying CWs may not have helped to prevent the incident but could have made it far worse...Can you imagine if all thirty-something people on the bus carried a CW and decided to take matters into their own hands?  I'm sure the outcome would have been far worse than it actually was...

 

[Kat Stevens]

I've been to Tempe and Tucson Arizona, an open carry state, with I believe also CCW.  Politest people I ever met in all my travels down there... good groupings make good neighbours.

 

[Fishbone Jones]

"Remember that those who CCW will all have some weapons and shooting training...."

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm pretty sure that this is not always the case.  I know in the States, there are only some states that require carriers to participate in a training course.  More often than not, I think that a large portion of people carrying CWs will not have the necessary or adequate training to handle the weapon safely.

In this case, carrying CWs may not have helped to prevent the incident but could have made it far worse...Can you imagine if all thirty-something people on the bus carried a CW and decided to take matters into their own hands?  I'm sure the outcome would have been far worse than it actually was...

You may think that all you wish, proving it is something else.

Extrapolation to the absurd. Sounds like anti gun rights  fear mongering, your opinion, but that's what it sounds like.

 

[Niteshade]

I think our gun laws are fine for the most part (sure they can do SOME improvement). I do not believe Canada needs CCW though. A look at the big picture, shows that Canada is substantially safer as a whole than the USA. Or at least, that is how I feel. I am not scared to walk down the street where I live.

As for the stabbing on the bus? Weird freak occurrence. How many of these stabbing/beheading do you see in the paper in a year? I do not believe that having a person on board with a concealed weapon would have stopped the young man from dying. From what I gather he was stabbed in the neck repeatedly prior to his beheading. Big injuries to incur in such a short time.

An armed person though would have performed society a good deed by taking this murderer out of the equation on the scene though.

It goes both ways. CCW eliminates tax burden, but I do not think a CCW enabled person would have saved this young man's life.

Nites

 

[2 Cdo]

I just want to know when the inevitable call for a ban on knives is going to happen and when are we going to have metal detectors and security personel at all bus stations. :

Extrapolation to the absurd. Sounds like anti gun rights  fear mongering, your opinion, but that's what it sounds like.

Because all guns are evil, and all gun owners are trigger happy yahoos. 8)

 

[Eye In The Sky]

I know in the States

Relevance?  This is Canada.

In this case, carrying CWs may not have helped to prevent the incident but could have made it far worse...Can you imagine if all thirty-something people on the bus carried a CW and decided to take matters into their own hands?  I'm sure the outcome would have been far worse than it actually was...

Please explain 'far worse' than an innocent person dead, with their head cut off.  You went to the other extreme, and instead of no one CCW, now you have ALL of them armed?   ???

 

[Eye In The Sky]

but I do not think a CCW enabled person would have saved this young man's life.

Nites

I respect your opinion, however different than mine and others like mine.  What I would like to ask is that you explain why you think that, not just that you think it.  Why do you think it would not have saved this person's life?

 

[NL_engineer]

I think our gun laws are fine for the most part (sure they can do SOME improvement). I do not believe Canada needs CCW though. A look at the big picture, shows that Canada is substantially safer as a whole than the USA. Or at least, that is how I feel. I am not scared to walk down the street where I live.

So its ok for the bad guys to have and use guns (our laws don't stop them from doing it and IMO make them more likely to carry them), but not for people to legally on and carry them :

 

[NL_engineer]

Why do you think it would not have saved this person's life?

Well is someone was able to do the right thing by shooting the attacker, first aid could have been administered, just because he was stabbed in the neck, doesn't mean he was dead.  On the other side if he was dead, it would have prevented the attacker from beheading the corpse.

 

[Eye In The Sky]

Well is someone was able to do the right thing by shooting the attacker, first aid could have been administered, just because he was stabbed in the neck, doesn't mean he was dead.  On the other side if he was dead, it would have prevented the attacker from beheading the corpse.

I was hoping the person I quoted (Niteshade) would take the time to explain why they think no benfit would have come from a CCW type being there...I think you and I are on the same side of the fence on this one.   

 

[Sheerin]

I respect your opinion, however different than mine and others like mine.  What I would like to ask is that you explain why you think that, not just that you think it.  Why do you think it would not have saved this person's life?

I don't believe it would have saved this individuals life as this was, most likely, the act of a mad man, who from accounts in MSM turned suddenly towards the person next to him and stabbed repeatedly and violently with a large enough knife that allowed him to decapitate the victim.  You may have been able to prevent the decapitation, however, based on the reports it wouldn't surprise me if anyone of the intial stabs would have proved to be fatal.  Hell theres a good chance the guy was already dead when he was decapitated.  
Given the nature of the attack, where it occured, and how quickly EMS could have responded, I'd be surprised if this guy survived the attack.  
But this is all speculation, just like your assumption that you could have saved the individual if you were on the bus and if you were armed.

 

[Eye In The Sky]

Speaking only for myself, I am SURE my reaction time would have given the poor soul a chance, and at the VERY minimum, a better chance than he had.  It definitely would have also made him NOT the only armed person on the vehicle.

"Something is better than nothing" in this case.  Nothing ended up where??

I think this is actually what I said.  I didn't say 'saved' as I have no way to guaruntee that, with all the unknowns.  But it is a fact it would have given him a 'chance' he didn't have as it was.

 

[NL_engineer]

I was hoping the person I quoted (Niteshade) would take the time to explain why they think no benfit would have come from a CCW type being there...I think you and I are on the same side of the fence on this one. 

Well we do, but it was easer to answer your question  ;D

Hopefully there will be more information coming out shortly on the case.

 

[larry Strong]

I think our gun laws are fine for the most part (sure they can do SOME improvement). I do not believe Canada needs CCW though. A look at the big picture, shows that Canada is substantially safer as a whole than the USA. Or at least, that is how I feel. I am not scared to walk down the street where I live.

Obviously you don't live in Calgary. It's like the wild wild west down there. It's only by the grace of God and probably poor shooting that no innocent people have been hit

 

[Fishbone Jones]

Just had to toss this out here for shitz n' giggles

 

[Fishbone Jones]

I think our gun laws are fine for the most part (sure they can do SOME improvement). I do not believe Canada needs CCW though. A look at the big picture, shows that Canada is substantially safer as a whole than the USA. Or at least, that is how I feel. I am not scared to walk down the street where I live.

You may want to rethink that statement.

http://www.ccrkba.org/pub/rkba/press-releases/cc_cn_crime_rate_double_us.htm

NEWS RELEASE

Citizens Committee for the
Right to Keep and Bear Arms
12500 N.E. Tenth Place
Bellevue, WA  98005


CANADA'S GUN REGISTRATION FAILURE: VIOLENT CRIME RATE DOUBLE THAT OF U.S.

For Immediate Release: January 17, 2006

BELLEVUE, WA – Canada's billion-dollar boondoggle – the national gun registration scheme – has proven itself an abysmal failure, as that country's violent crime rates are double those reported in the United States, the Citizens Committee for the Right to Keep and Bear Arms (CCRKBA) noted today.

"We looked at violent crime rates per 100,000 population in both countries, using the most recent available data," said CCRKBA Chairman Alan Gottlieb, "and we were not surprised at what we found. Since Canada started this ridiculous and costly program, violent crime has gone up dramatically, at the same time that crime in the United States has declined. Yet, there are people in the states who think Canada's gun legislation should be the model for America.

"By comparing the data," he detailed, "we found that the violent crime rate in the United States was 475 per 100,000 population, while up north, there were 963 violent crimes per 100,000 population. The figure for sexual assault in Canada per 100,000 population is more than double that of the United States, 74 as opposed to 32.1, and the assault rate in Canada is also more than twice that of the states, 746 to our 295 for the population rate."

Noted CCRKBA Executive Director Joe Waldron: "What happened in the states to actually contribute to a reduction in our overall crime rate is simple. We've got 38 states with shall-issue, right-to-carry concealed handgun laws. While Canada has clamped down on its citizens' gun rights, our citizens have been empowered against criminals by passage of these laws. The disparity in crime rates between the two countries says it all about how well gun registration works to stop crime, as opposed to actually carrying guns to deter criminals, and fight back if necessary."

A Jan. 3 story in Canada's National Post by writer David Frum confirmed CCRKBA's independent finding. Frum wrote, "Canada's overall crime rate is now 50% higher than the crime rate in the United States." Later, Frum added: "Gun registries and gun bans…do not work."

"Instead of promising to ban legally-owned handguns in Canada," Waldron observed, "Prime Minister Paul Martin should be urging citizens to arm themselves. He should encourage Parliament to scrap gun registration and replace it with a gun ownership and training program."

"Since going on the warpath against guns, Canada's Liberals have presided over the sharpest rise in violent crime in the nation's history," Gottlieb said. "There are more rapes, more robberies and more murders. If that tells Canadian citizens anything at all, it's that Paul Martin and his Liberals have literally been ‘dead wrong' on guns."


With more than 650,000 members and supporters nationwide, the Citizens Committee for the Right to Keep and Bear Arms is one of the nation's premier gun rights organizations. As a non-profit organization, the Citizens Committee is dedicated to preserving firearms freedoms through active lobbying of elected officials and facilitating grass-roots organization of gun rights activists in local communities throughout the United States. The Citizens Committee can be reached by phone at (425) 454-4911, on the internet at www.ccrkba.org or by email to InformationRequest@ccrkba.org.

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