The Great Gun Control Debate

[QV]

So your entire argument then is to punish the "many" for the sins of a "few". Sounds like the Liberal party of Canada

Don't jump to conclusions.  Just like driving a car is regulated and has licencing requirements so does firearm ownership.  How is everyone being punished?  For the record I don't agree with a firearm ban.  But I do agree with licencing, registration and that CCW is not the norm.

 

[Scott]

I will ignore the personal attacks by Scott and recceguy (let it go gents :)

QV,

Final chance. I stepped into this thread because you seem unwilling to listen to alternate viewpoints, it appears that you wish to push your personal agenda only and damn what anyone else says. It seems as though you are going over the same weak argument again and again despite the fact that most points have been played out in this mega thread a few times.

As well you took a direct swipe at the DS when you were not even involved in that particular conversation. One could say, "mind your own business"

You guys really need to learn to debate around here... just because someone disagrees with you doesn't mean they are a troll. 

I did read and re-read this thread and Sig Guy is not being inflammatory nor abrasive.  He is not name calling and he is not being dis-respectful.  He is simply disagreeing.  Other posters were heated up and came across as abrasive.  If I was Sig Guy I would take that "verbal warning" to the Supreme Court of Army.ca... I think it was a mistake in judgement and from a non-participant of this thread (until now) it appears Sig Guy was punished for disagreeing with DS Staff.   

And the explanation from the man himself:

I never said anything about his opinion being the reason for the warning for trolling. His posting style adds nothing to the discussion, all he's been putting in are one line answers (which don't really answer anything) to specific things we've posted. He has yet to put in a paragraph outlining his thoughts, this style is not only posted in this thread but in many others.

Scott
Army.ca Staff

 

[2 Cdo]

Don't jump to conclusions.  Just like driving a car is regulated and has licencing requirements so does firearm ownership.  How is everyone being punished?  For the record I don't agree with a firearm ban.  But I do agree with licencing, registration and that CCW is not the norm.

But can the police seize your car for not being properly stored at 0300? I also don't need a licence to simply own a car, just to drive it.

I don't have a problem with licensing and training, it's the registration that leads to police over-reacting if they respond to a home for something minor, and then seize your weapons due to THEIR fear and lack of understanding of the laws that govern safe storage of firearms. Not a slam against most police, but I highly doubt there is a single police officer who knows and understands every single law in the Criminal Code of Canada, plus all the nonsense that makes up firearms registry.

 

[armyvern]

Ya, imagine if the police could take your car for being parked in the wrong place whenever they want. Next they'll make you to carry proof of ownership.
> > >

One doesn't have to have a license to have a proof of ownership.

If they are towing my car for being parked in the wrong place; it is because it is ILLEGALY parked. Hmmmm, illegal quite the big difference there eh? ILLEGAL = towed = punishment. That's right, punishment for doing something ILLEGAL.

Not illegally parked = not towed = no punishment of an innocent owner.

Now they sure aren't going to tow it because it isn't locked are they?

Points to ponder.  >

 

[Fishbone Jones]

So what are your credentials?  You more then understand the lawful application of use of force procedures?

LEOs aren't some sort of all seeing, all knowing (that's abundantly clear) demigods that are the only ones with specialist knowledge. Anything can be taught.You weren't born with the knowledge. Why? Do you think it should be some sort of trade secret?

Fair enough.  Some people it seems will go to the ends of the world to be able to carry around a pistol. 

If you can learn it, anyone else can and should be allowed to, if willing.

edit for punctuation

 

[QV]

But can the police seize your car for not being properly stored at 0300? I also don't need a licence to simply own a car, just to drive it.

I don't have a problem with licensing and training, it's the registration that leads to police over-reacting if they respond to a home for something minor, and then seize your weapons due to THEIR fear and lack of understanding of the laws that govern safe storage of firearms. Not a slam against most police, but I highly doubt there is a single police officer who knows and understands every single law in the Criminal Code of Canada, plus all the nonsense that makes up firearms registry.

If police seized firearms due to "their" fear and for no other lawful reason then I am sure there would be hell to pay.  But if they seized it for not being safely stored, then that is a different story.  I agree I also doubt that there is a single police officer who knows and understands every single law.  I also doubt there are lawyers that do too.

 

[QV]

One doesn't have to have a license to have a proof of ownership.

Nope but you can't use it without a licence.

If they are towing my car for being parked in the wrong place; it is because it is ILLEGALY parked. Hmmmm, illegal quite the big difference there eh? ILLEGAL = towed = punishment. That's right, punishment for doing something ILLEGAL.

Same with unsafe storage of a firearm.  Unsafe storage = seized = probably charged.  Unsafe storage is ILLEGAL.  The court will determine if the owner is innocent or not.

Not locking a vehicle is different from not locking up a firearm. 

 

[Fishbone Jones]

If police seized firearms due to "their" fear and for no other lawful reason then I am sure there would be hell to pay.

You would think so, but that is seldom the case. In most instances, the firearms owner spend weeks and countless lawyer fees trying to get his confiscated firearms returned. The police and crown are seldom, if ever, rerimanded.

I agree I also doubt that there is a single police officer who knows and understands every single law.  I also doubt there are lawyers that do too

But if they seized it for not being safely stored, then that is a different story.

This is true, but using a warrantless search to go on a fishing expedition, to see if they're safely stored, is against the Charter...............except when it comes to firearms owners.

 

[Fishbone Jones]

Nope but you can't use it without a licence.

You can on private property, insurance is not even required.

Same with unsafe storage of a firearm.  Unsafe storage = seized = probably charged.  Unsafe storage is ILLEGAL.  The court will determine if the owner is innocent or not.

Not locking a vehicle is different from not locking up a firearm. 

Except when your firearm is in your vehicle, then in the case of non restricted, the vehicle becomes the storage medium.

Before you get too immersed in storage laws, make sure you read and understand them. They can be archaic, and often contradictory. If your a dealer or end user they also differ. The CFC has even posted contradictory information on their web site.

 

[QV]

Now they sure aren't going to tow it because it isn't locked are they?

Yes, actually.  If I think it could be tampered with or stolen.

S. 77 (1)(g) TSA
http://www.canlii.org/ab/laws/sta/t-6/20070515/whole.html

Edited to add:
In BC it is an offence to leave an unlocked vehicle unsupervised.

S. 191 (2)(a) MVA
http://www.qp.gov.bc.ca/statreg/stat/M/96318_05.htm#section188

 

[1feral1]

If police seized firearms due to "their" fear and for no other lawful reason then I am sure there would be hell to pay. 

21 April 1991 - Regina.

Had the the MPs along with local police size:

a Cdn CAL 9mm SMG which was one of three legallly owned

a Cdn CAL FN C1A1 (8L), which is onew of several hundred legally owned  

a Cdn Inglis 9mm BHP, which was one of many thousand legally owned

All were owned and registered to me for many years before the 'raid'. All were stored securely well beyond even today's standard, and in an alarmed room, and alarmed house.

My entire gun collection was indeed siezed along with over 100 bayonets. All by an overzealous and IGNORANT combination of MP and City Police, who really thought you could not own such Canadian Forces 'issued' firearms.

Yes all at gunpoint in front of my home, in front of my neighbours, I was handcuffed, and ened up going to gaol becuse I could not be monitered and watched in my own home as it was torn a part.

It took me four weeks to get back my property (AND I HAD TO FIGHT TO GET IT, AND I MEAN FIGHT!), and many items came back damaged. I ended up being charged with counts of 'possession of a unregistered restricted weapon', which in reality was although they had been 'applied to be registered' with hard copy in writing forms, they were not in the system, nor did I have the green FRC's to back this up, as all was in the pipeline between Ottawa and Regina. Thats how phucked things were.

I had to go to court for that, cost me a total of *******$5900******* in legal fees to prove my innocence.

Yes I won, I had done nothing wrong, but I was always looked and treated with suspicion by the Regina Police after that, copping abuse even to register further pieces to my then collection. I dreaded any contact with them after this.

Hell to pay? One might think, but there was none. I was told I did not have a leg to stand on legally for any action against them. Now 16 yrs, I am still one pissed off bitter and twisted person. Ya, I was 110% legal, and I was still treated like a POS. That was the beginning of the end of my favourite hobby and passtime. That incident ruined things for me, and took the wind out of my sails for collecting. A$$holes!

On, for the record, I did get an 'oh sorry', and that was it.

To this day, I have little trust and faith in the firearms Cdn regisrtry, and the MP/ RCMP/ local Police's general knowledge of gun laws. Their behaviour was that of the Gestapo.

I realised that on that day, I had no rights, was treated poorly, spending a long night in cells for comitting no crime. Plus the fact I was out of pocket almost $6000, I consider that theft! Still do.

A billion dollars on the registry, what a waste of money!! 200 million spent on cancer research, what an embarassment. All to be PC and appease the Cukiers out there. Phuck em!

So QV, put that in your pipe and smoke it!


Wes

 

[Yrys]

I was told I did not have a leg to stand on legally for any action against them.

I don't know the laws, but that is wrong.

 

[Fry]

QV I have a question for you and I would like for you to answer it.

How has the gun registry cut down on gun crime and helps keep the citizens of Canada safe from criminals?

Please, back up your arguements with links.

 

[QV]

Wes

I don't know the details about your situation but it sounds like a rough ride.  Keep in mind that police only need "reasonable grounds" to believe for arrests and search warrants.  And warrants are reviewed by justices or judges before getting signed.  If the arrest or warrant turns out to be unlawful then a judge will also be deciding if the police acted in "good faith" or "bad faith".  If they acted in bad faith, chances are the 5-0 will be on the hook.  I don't know about 1991, but today police are more hamstrung then ever before and are always getting raked over the coals.  Sorry you had that rough ride, but I hope you don't paint all the police with that brush.

I think Zipperheadcop commented earlier that these types of threads sometimes degenerate into anti police threads.  I hope that this isn't the case here.  

 

[1feral1]

....but I hope you don't paint all the police with that brush.

With the exception of a few, I do and always will.

0% faith in the justice system

0% faith in one's rights

0% faith in police competance; and

0% faith in the firearms registry, thats a given! Ha!

Regards,

Wes

 

[QV]

QV I have a question for you and I would like for you to answer it.

How has the gun registry cut down on gun crime and helps keep the citizens of Canada safe from criminals?

Please, back up your arguements with links.

I don't have any statistical data because I really don't read much about whether Canada's gun laws are making a difference or not.  However a couple points come to mind:

By having to register the guns someone buys, it deters them from being misused.  Like loaning to an unlicenced person, selling to an inlicenced person... ect.  

Also it aids police.  When going to violent calls and knowing (positively) that there are guns around.  Although there is always at least one gun at every call - the officer's.

It is also an enforcement tool when people have firearms in their possession illegally.  

 

[Fry]

Powerful words Wes. However, I do understand where you come from there and I agree.

0% faith in the justice system - When I took out a section 810 bond out against a violent relative, I got to witness a few other cases. One gentleman was fined in the 10's of thousands of dollars, boat confiscated, motor confiscated, pickup confiscated because he had a few codfish aboard. The following case, a REPEAT offending punk was busted with X amount of weed which was packaged for sale, etc, and he got 2 years probation.

0% faith in one's rights - As a Mr. A Rose once put it "You can't trust freedom when it's not in your hand". Enough said.

0% faith in police competance - Hmm, a toughie for me to fully understand and agree with... however when I cut out around a drunk driver (after riding my breaks for half an hour and him swaying over the road) I got pulled over. The cop told me himself that initially his lights were on for the guy ahead of me, but seeing that I "aggressively" passed him, he pulled me over instead. Told me that I'd lose 5 demerits. Failure to stop at a stopsign and illegal passing. I inquired about this at the DMV and was told that the officer was basically full of it, 2 demerits were taken off, and they weren't happy that the drunky got off. Not to mention the officer turned and went in the other direction after I had advised why I had passed. You can't peg 'em all and I know some fine officers, but the badge doesn't make you always right.

0% faith in the firearms registry - Anyone with our freedoms and rights at heart will agree that the joke of a legislation is a total violation everything that Canada apparently stands for. Tracking my every move because some hippy tree hunging red thinks that my rifle looks evil or that my handgun will take over the world is ridiculous. Enabling some prankster to waste thousands of valuable tax dollars and embarass and possibly mentally scar families because of BS raids, etc. What kind of society full of rights and freedoms allows a disgruntled neighbour to (possibly even guess) that I'm in violation of some gun law, have officers storm my home, confiscate my property, waste my time, possibly temp jail time while crap's processed, etc. This is already beaten to death but it's ridiculous.

I don't have any statistical data because I really don't read much about whether Canada's gun laws are making a difference or not.

Judging by what you've been posting, I've thought as much.

It is also an enforcement tool when people have firearms in their possession illegally. 

How so? If they have illegally possessed firearms, how will a registry of legally possessed firearms tell you that?

By having to register the guns someone buys, it deters them from being misused.  Like loaning to an unlicenced person, selling to an inlicenced person... ect.   

How is the gun registry a deterrant for misuse?  Are you saying that because one's firearms are registered, they'll never be misused? What are you getting at?

Also it aids police.  When going to violent calls and knowing (positively) that there are guns around.  Although there is always at least one gun at every call - the officer's.
   

How does the registry aid police other than see if someone has legally owned firearms? Should you not go into a domestic dispute and assume just because the registry comes up with no firearms at the home, that there are none? Should you lower your guard? This would put yourself, your partner and innocent people at risk. I have zero law background and even I know that's a no-no.

As I mentioned, do your research, come back with logical arguements on how the registry isn't a waste of money, a violation of rights, and a total waste of crap, back it up with legit links, and I'll vote Lieberal.

 

[RangerRay]

So it's alright for law-abiding citizens to be the subject of a warrantless search and seizure at any time for no other reason than he/she owns legally acquired and registered property?  Because under the Firearms Act, this is what the authorities can do.

Automobile owners are not subjected to such draconian measures.  As well, if you don't register your automobile, you don't get a criminal record, since it's only an offence under provincial statute.

 

[QV]

Firearms Act

Inspection of dwelling-house

104. (1) An inspector may not enter a dwelling-house under section 102 except

(a) on reasonable notice to the owner or occupant, except where a business is being carried on in the dwelling-house; and
(b) with the consent of the occupant or under a warrant.

Criminal Code
S. 117.04 (2)   Where, with respect to any person, a peace officer is satisfied that there are reasonable grounds to believe that it is not desirable, in the interests of the safety of the person or any other person, for the person to possess any weapon, prohibited device, ammunition, prohibited ammunition or explosive substance, the peace officer may, where the grounds for obtaining a warrant under subsection (1) exist but, by reason of a possible danger to the safety of that person or any other person, it would not be practicable to obtain a warrant, search for and seize any such thing, and any authorization, licence or registration certificate relating to any such thing, that is held by or in the possession of the person.

That is what I could find on searching your home for your firearms.  Where does it say police can kick in your door at 0300 hrs without notice just to inspect?  In S. 117.04 (2) it is talking about exigent circumstances (IE when someone is in danger) and it is not an unreasonable law.

 

[QV]

Automobile owners are not subjected to such draconian measures.  As well, if you don't register your automobile, you don't get a criminal record, since it's only an offence under provincial statute.

In some provinces auto owners are required by law to submit their vehicle to yearly inspections to determine if the vehicle is fit for the road... even if your vehicle is only two years old.