The Great Gun Control Debate- 2.0

[Jarnhamar]

Any competent defense lawyer should be able to shred this one, but not before costing these two a pretty hefty sum.

Thousands each for a retainer alone.

Before the pandemic hit we were complaining about an over burdened justice system.
During the pandemic we started releasing prisoners due to Covid fears
[ Judges release growing number accused of violent crimes due to COVID-19 fears
https://globalnews.ca/news/6788223/coronavirus-prisons-inmates-released/ ]
So we charge a couple of tone deaf guys with weapon charges.


Interesting comment in the above story

One is the accused getaway driver for a recent Toronto murder attempt. Another allegedly pistol-whipped and Tasered two in Ottawa over a drug debt. A third was allegedly involved in a Toronto strip mall shooting.

Great people to let out of jail.

 

[Cloud Cover]

Any competent defense lawyer should be able to shred this one, but not before costing these two a pretty hefty sum.

This is a specific internet offence. High bar.
Theoretically they can’t be found guilty to a crime that doesn’t fit the facts. So there’s that ...

 

[Eaglelord17]

Any competent defense lawyer should be able to shred this one, but not before costing these two a pretty hefty sum.

They should sue the cops who charged them. It is malicious prosecution, and harassment to law abiding citizens who have committed no illegal act. Not the best choice at the moment, however they did not commit a crime. Hell you can walk into that store and buy one yourself if you want to with no restrictions whatsoever. Once the cops knew it was a airsoft gun and they had not done anything wrong they should have been let go. The cops also knew this didn't qualify for the charges as to quote the article "Investigators don’t believe there was ever a threat to public safety".

These cops let their egos get before their jobs and it is disgraceful.

 

[Kat Stevens]

They should sue the cops who charged them. It is malicious prosecution, and harassment to law abiding citizens who have committed no illegal act. Not the best choice at the moment, however they did not commit a crime. Hell you can walk into that store and buy one yourself if you want to with no restrictions whatsoever. Once the cops knew it was a airsoft gun and they had not done anything wrong they should have been let go. The cops also knew this didn't qualify for the charges as to quote the article "Investigators don’t believe there was ever a threat to public safety".

These cops let their egos get before their jobs and it is disgraceful.

Sounds like a case of "because we (think we) can".

 

[LittleBlackDevil]

These cops let their egos get before their jobs and it is disgraceful.

Not necessarily. A lot of police forces have "policy manuals" on stuff like this. The officers may well have felt they had no choice.

I remember many a conversation I had with police back when I was still a prosecutor, wherein I would demand to know why they laid a charge when there was clearly no evidence of an offence and the response was, invariably, "because I would get fired if I didn't".

 

[LittleBlackDevil]

This is a specific internet offence. High bar.
Theoretically they can’t be found guilty to a crime that doesn’t fit the facts. So there’s that ...

Yes, there is pretty clear case law out there that there needs to be solid proof of an actual dangerous purpose. It is well-established that "a purpose suspected to be dangerous to the public peace" is not enough. That said, these guys should still hire a lawyer, because if they want to be assured of walking away without their lives destroyed they need someone who really knows the law, not someone who knows how to use google.

 

[LittleBlackDevil]

Before the pandemic hit we were complaining about an over burdened justice system.
During the pandemic we started releasing prisoners due to Covid fears
[ Judges release growing number accused of violent crimes due to COVID-19 fears
https://globalnews.ca/news/6788223/coronavirus-prisons-inmates-released/ ]
So we charge a couple of tone deaf guys with weapon charges.

It's worse than that, I've seen cases of people being charged for coughing, like this one: https://globalnews.ca/news/6793781/stratford-covid-19-cough-assault-lcbo/

And yes, I can confirm that this man was actually charged, just can't find a news article that confirms that.

 

[Good2Golf]

Sounds like a case of "because we (think we) can".

Putting it in context days after a mass shooting in the Province, I’d assess these two AirSofters as idiots who were stupid for doing a trunk-to-trunknexchange of what looks to 99.999% of the population to be a real, menacing weapon. I don’t think existing case law would immediately exonerate them.  I do think it was stupid of them, that some citizens were ‘reasonably concerned’ enough to call HPS, and that the PCs took action and passed the responsibility to judge accordingly to the judicial system. I don’t see where it’s not working. Will it cost them to go to court for an appearance (where I honestly think the Judge will give them a speech for a lesson then acquit them)? Yes.  Would any of us firearms owners have ever done the same, real weapons or airsoft?  I’d like to think not. They need a lesson, and it can also be a positive opportunity to note that legal firearms owners don’t do this kind of stupid stuff.

Regards
G2G

 

[Kat Stevens]

Undeniably they are a pair of idiots, but if that were illegal prison building would be our number one industry.

 

[Haggis]

Putting it in context days after a mass shooting in the Province, I’d assess these two AirSofters as idiots who were stupid for doing a trunk-to-trunk exchange of what looks to 99.999% of the population to be a real, menacing weapon.

There is a small, rebellious segment of legal gun owners who are openly self righteous and will challenge the boundaries of acceptable behaviour to prove a point. These are the types which will transport an unloaded non restricted in the back seat of their car hoping to get pulled over so they can educate Barney Fife on gun laws.

I don’t think existing case law would immediately exonerate them.

  Case law is a guide to be followed by judges and not a line in the sand to never be crossed.  Yes, it creates precedents, but so does stupid behaviour on the part of the accused.

I do think it was stupid of them, that some citizens were ‘reasonably concerned’ enough to call HPS, and that the PCs took action and passed the responsibility to judge accordingly to the judicial system.

I violently agree with that.

I don’t see where it’s not working. Will it cost them to go to court for an appearance (where I honestly think the Judge will give them a speech for a lesson then acquit them)? Yes.

Depending on the delay before this comes in front of a judge and how the Crown presents the situational factors will determine if your belief comes true and they are excoriated or they are used to set an example 'pour encourager les autres".

Would any of us firearms owners have ever done the same, real weapons or airsoft?  I’d like to think not. They need a lesson, and it can also be a positive opportunity to note that legal firearms owners don’t do this kind of stupid stuff.

And that will be re-tried in the media as a "soft on gun crime" sentencing.

 

[Jarnhamar]

Federal government could act on gun control as early as Friday: sources
Public Safety Minister Bill Blair has a list of 11 firearms he wants to see banned
https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/liberal-government-gun-control-friday-1.5549969


World wide pandemic.
Economy is taking a shit kicking.
Mass shooting with illegally smuggled guns
Perfect time to push the banning of 11 (?) types of firearms.

 

[cavalryman]

Federal government could act on gun control as early as Friday: sources
Public Safety Minister Bill Blair has a list of 11 firearms he wants to see banned
https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/liberal-government-gun-control-friday-1.5549969


World wide pandemic.
Economy is taking a shit kicking.
Mass shooting with illegally smuggled guns
Perfect time to push the banning of 11 (?) types of firearms.

Never let a crisis go to waste.

 

[dangerboy]

Curious to see what the 11 firearms are.

 

[Jarnhamar]

Curious to see what the 11 firearms are.

Semi-automatics with magazines
Semi-automatics without magazines that hold over 5 rounds
Guns with flash hiders
Guns with pistol grips
Guns with plastic parts
Shotguns that hold over 3 rounds
Pump action guns that hold over 5
Bolt actions with detachable magazines
Guns with folding stocks
Lever action guns that hold over 5 rounds
Semi-automatic pistols maybe for the bonus?

 

[dangerboy]

Don't forget any rifle that is black.

 

[Stoker]

Curious to see what the 11 firearms are.

AR-15
Mini 14
CZ Scorpion
Swiss Arms Classic Green
Beretta Cx4 Storm
Robinson Armament XCR
Sig Sauer SIG MCX
SKS
BCL 102
WK 180-3
DERYA

 

[Colin Parkinson]

That would cost me 5 firearms at least.

 

[Eaglelord17]

Not necessarily. A lot of police forces have "policy manuals" on stuff like this. The officers may well have felt they had no choice.

I remember many a conversation I had with police back when I was still a prosecutor, wherein I would demand to know why they laid a charge when there was clearly no evidence of an offence and the response was, invariably, "because I would get fired if I didn't".

Well then the 'policy manual' needs to be changed. The officers have unions to protect them, and they have a responsibility to the public and to the government. Laying charges they know don't apply to punish by process the individual is a crime against the individual and the officer laying the charge should be liable for any and all expenses/damages occurred by the defendant. I don't accept the 'just following orders' excuse. Didn't work for the Nazis at Nuremburg and it doesn't work for my police who I hold to a infinitely higher standard.

 

[Stoker]

That would cost me 5 firearms at least.

Yep I'm going to lose 26 at least.

 

[Stoker]

Yep I'm going to lose 26 at least.

More information came out today, apparently of the 11 types 9 of them cover over 1500 variants. I was wrong on the SKS but it appears the hit list also includes the M14 and VZ. Anything over 20mm metric and 10000 joules are gone that includes all sorts of tactical shotguns and the .50 BMG.