The German Army

[rolandstrong]

This issue has arisen in Canada a number of times, particularly during WWI and WWII. The "Conscription Crisis" as it called became a huge political nightmare for King in the 40‘s. Split the country. Quebec was vehemently opposed, and threats were thus made to Canadian national unity. Only when the Japanese invaded Alaska did the public support a draft that could augment our oversees forces.

On another thread, relating to conscription, the US went to an all volunteer force in 1975, and the professionalism of their forces went up dramatically. Schwartzkopf makes note of this event in his autobiography. I think there is something to be said for an all voluntary force. Generally your troops will be more motivated, and in our situation that is one of our greatest assets given the token political support we get.

 

[rolandstrong]

Just to clarify a point on the US and stronger military performance mentioned by Schwartzkopf.

It was not instantaneous.

He mentioned that it took a while to restructure the system...around a decade (and a trial war in Grenada).

 

[Fader]

I think the CF already has great incentives for being in, especially within the reserves. I‘m the first to prattle on about how sweet we got it as reservists. I mean for a class A day, $80 a day for a day that normally runs from 730-5 with 2 fifteen minute coffee breaks and an hour lunch (half an hour if it‘s provided). That‘s about the same as most places for an entry level part time position. Promotion to Corporal after 2 years time, and a raise to about $100 sweetens the deal. $2000 a year for University students for 4 years. Incredibly flexble work schedules. Normally guarunteed full time employment during the summer (although alot of friends of mine at the unit got screwed over hardcore this year, but not being loaded since they changed the security requirement). For me, getting a course in a sweet *** party town within range of New York, Toronoto, Montreal and Ottawa. I‘ve mentioned it a lot, only to piss off alot of folk here, but that‘s like a paid vacation!

 

[Stewpid]

The reason Canada does not have mandatory military service, and never will is a direct result of the beliefs of which the country was founded on.  Freedoms in particular.  If its mandatory, then you remove the freedom to choose.  How could we allow ourselves to be so hypocritical here in Canada and then go to foreign countries and prattle about freedom‘s.  What credit would we have?


Just a thought anyways.

Just on this one to add to your thought and to say "never will" is a bit naive., dont automatically think there wouldnt be conscription...What about the supplementary reserve list for retired members? If the bubble goes up this list would be activated to release active members to take care of business, sup res would be doing more of the home fires stuff including training cadres and guard duties.

 

[RangerRay]

I used to believe in national service to give aimless youth direction, but after being in the reserves, and reading on other armies' experiences around conscription, I am totally against it, except for times of great national emergency, or in situations that Israel faces.  Not only is it contrary to liberty and freedom, but it is also detrimental to a professional military to have unmotivated conscripts who do not want to be there in the first place.

My $0.02.

 

[RangerRay]

I used to believe in national service to give aimless youth direction, but after being in the reserves, and reading on other armies' experiences around conscription, I am totally against it, except for times of great national emergency, or in situations that Israel faces.  Not only is it contrary to liberty and freedom, but it is also detrimental to a professional military to have unmotivated conscripts who do not want to be there in the first place.

My $0.02.

 

[pbi]

Given the history of political resistance in Quebec to the idea of  wartime conscription, I don't think we'll ever see it as a peacetime measure, nor do I really want it. I'd rather have a few good troops who really want to be there than a big rabble of time-servers watching the calendar. Having said that, htough, I have to question this statement:

Not only is it contrary to liberty and freedom,

Why do you say that? The Swiss, for example, have compulsory service, and Switzerland is often held up as an example of a democracy that works. The US has compulsory selective service (it's on "hold" right now, but the laws are there), and nobody questions that it is a democracy. The UK had it until the 1960's, and England is the home of parliamentary democracy and basic perrsonal liberties as we understand them today. Isn't it true that in a free society, citizens owe a duty towards keeping that society free and secure? Or is paying taxes good enough?

Cheers

 

[vonGarvin]

"Some sort" of national service by all citizens would, in my opinion, be a good thing.  Having said that, I realise that it probably would not work in Canada.
To amplify what I mean, "national service" does NOT mean service in the military, though that could be an option.  Working for the state at any level (municipal, provincial/territorial or national) would be, in my opinion, an excellent way to export the idea of Canada as a State to up and coming persons.  For example, assume that after graduation from high school, every person owes one year's service.  They could be a "sanitation engineer" for the local city, a "traffic controller" for the province as part of a road crew or a soldier in the local reserve unit.  Now, I'm not going to pretend that this could be implemented, but I think it would be a "nice idea".  For the local reserve service, mandatory attendance would be a requirement, say one or two nights a week and a weekend a month with summer's "block booked". 
For many, such service would be their "first job" and give them an introduction into the world of managing finances, etc.  There would be no exceptions allowed, except in extreme cases (mental or physical disability, perhaps), and the "conscientious objector" status would not apply, as planting trees in the Yukon is not against any religion or philosophical attitude (as far as I can tell).
But, I'm not smoking my weed today, so I realise that this would not work in our society.  Too bad.

 

[Roy Harding]

"Some sort" of national service by all citizens would, in my opinion, be a good thing.  Having said that, I realise that it probably would not work in Canada.
To amplify what I mean, "national service" does NOT mean service in the military, though that could be an option.  Working for the state at any level (municipal, provincial/territorial or national) would be, in my opinion, an excellent way to export the idea of Canada as a State to up and coming persons.  For example, assume that after graduation from high school, every person owes one year's service.  They could be a "sanitation engineer" for the local city, a "traffic controller" for the province as part of a road crew or a soldier in the local reserve unit.  Now, I'm not going to pretend that this could be implemented, but I think it would be a "nice idea".  For the local reserve service, mandatory attendance would be a requirement, say one or two nights a week and a weekend a month with summer's "block booked". 
For many, such service would be their "first job" and give them an introduction into the world of managing finances, etc.  There would be no exceptions allowed, except in extreme cases (mental or physical disability, perhaps), and the "conscientious objector" status would not apply, as planting trees in the Yukon is not against any religion or philosophical attitude (as far as I can tell).
But, I'm not smoking my weed today, so I realise that this would not work in our society.  Too bad.

Capt S:

Couldn't agree with you more - see my thoughts here:  http://forums.milnet.ca/forums/threads/58774/post-546275.html#msg546275

Roy

 

[RangerRay]

Why do you say that?

In my view, compelling someone to do something that they would otherwise choose not to do (be it serving in the military, fighting forest fires, or wiping old peoples' arses) would be taking away that person's right to do something else that they may want to do at that time.  I believe that people have a right to live their life as they see fit (as long as it does not negatively affect someone else) without the state telling them what to do.

Not to mention the general poor quality and low motivation of conscripted soldiers.

EDIT:  I seem to have made a double post earlier on.  :-[  Would a mod be so kind as to delete one of the posts for me please?  Thank you. 

 

[Roy Harding]

In my view, compelling someone to do something that they would otherwise choose not to do (be it serving in the military, fighting forest fires, or wiping old peoples' arses) would be taking away that person's right to do something else that they may want to do at that time.  I believe that people have a right to live their life as they see fit (as long as it does not negatively affect someone else) without the state telling them what to do.

Not to mention the general poor quality and low motivation of conscripted soldiers.

EDIT:  I seem to have made a double post earlier on.  :-[  Would a mod be so kind as to delete one of the posts for me please?  Thank you. 

I see your point - however (isn't there always a "however"?) - I don't think (and no, I can't support this opinion with quotes of studies) that MOST folks understand what "service" (or belonging) to a society means.  I think most Canadian citizens (of all ages) understand what their RIGHTS are, but I don't believe that most understand what their RESPONSIBILITIES are.

I'm not an SME on the subject, but having lived in this society for my entire life (and having been exposed to OTHER societies), I believe that we are abysmal at educating our citizens regarding their responsibilities to the world in general, their country (again in general), their local community (provincial and municipal/rural), specifically, and themselves & immediate family in particular.

You seem to be (negatively) focusing on CF service; some (including myself) have advocated a "National Service" APART from the CF - I don't understand your objection to alternate sevice - CUSO, etcetera.

I understand (and generally agree with) your view that people have a "right to live their life as they see fit", and indeed, I am currently doing so.  BUT - in my opinion, I EARNED that right through 25 years of service to the society of which I am a part (and I continue to contribute in extreme circumstances - such as the flooding we are currently experiencing in Northern BC).  You need to CONTRIBUTE to society prior to taking from it - or expecting protection from it.

Those who do not wish to be part of society are certainly welcome to live in the bush - we've got a glut of "untamed land" here in northern BC - but don't expect the REST of us to rush to your assistance when you're flooded/burned/frozen out - if you can't be bothered to contribute to the general good, why should we contribute to your personal good?

I think you need to figure out how your personal "needs" (food, shelter, clean water) are met - THEN figure out if you wish to continue receiving those benefits - if not, by all means fill your boots in the woods - just don't expect ME to come looking for you when things don't work out ('cause I won't).


Roy

 

[nihilpavor]

Mandatory national service could be a good idea, but let me disagree with you on a few points.

We work on average 4 to 5 months per year to pay all our taxes. Yup, to receive services like police services, Canadian Forces, Public safety programs, etc. In short, we work hard to pay the salaries of those who will come and help us when we need it. Paying taxes is a BIG participation to the common good (I'd much prefer sitting on my butt than working all those months if it weren't for the common good).

That's were mandatory national service could be helpful, in providing some cheap labor possibly helping the govs to lower taxes and at the same time give some good working experience and sense of duty to kids who just left school.

 

[RangerRay]

Hi Roy.

No, I did not mean to negatively focus on the CF.  I enjoyed my time in it and if a reserve unit were closer to where I live, I would love to be back in.  I did mention other forms of national service, including fire fighting and healthcare (or as my German friend described it to me, "wiping old peoples' @$$es").  I am also dismayed at the lack of civics education to teach people how government and it's institutions function, how our Constitution functions, and what our responsibilities as citizens are.  

However, the libertarian in me feels that it's wrong to compel someone to serve the state should they not wish to, for whatever reason that is.  I know one part of me thinks that if aimless youth were directed to some form of national service, it might give them some focus.  But if I were a section 2IC again, the last thing I would want are troops who do not want to be there.  My German friend told me horror stories about some of his fellow conscripts when he did his service.  One of them was the biggest drug dealer in the city, and was routinely selling drugs to his fellow conscripts.  I would like to think that our volunteer recruiting system is able to weed out more of the riff-raff, whereas mandatory service tends to direct riff-raff to the military in hopes of reforming them.  Again, were I a section 2IC again, I would not want any kind of criminal element in my section.

Again, my $0.02.  

 

[Retired AF Guy]

Anybody know what Greece and Italy do?

Not sure about Greece, but according to wikipedia Italy ended compulsory service on July 29th, 2004. I know that there has been some opposition to this. For instance, veterans of the Alpini (mountain) regiments were worried about it. With compulsory service members for the Alpini units always came from northern Italy, but with its end, the vetrans groups were upset that now its members would come from anywhere in Italy.

I also know that Turkey has for some time now been trying to get away from a conscript force to an all-volunteer force, but I'm not sure how successful they have been. I know the Turkish troops I saw in Sarajevo in the summer of 2000, were a lot better equipped than the ones I saw in Cyprus in 1992. (As an aside, when I was stationed in Italy I worked with several Turkish officers and always wondered if they were still allowed shot their men if they were caught mis-behaving, but I never got the nerve to ask :-X).

 

[Roy Harding]

Hi Roy.

No, I did not mean to negatively focus on the CF.  I enjoyed my time in it and if a reserve unit were closer to where I live, I would love to be back in.  I did mention other forms of national service, including fire fighting and healthcare (or as my German friend described it to me, "wiping old peoples' @$$es").  I am also dismayed at the lack of civics education to teach people how government and it's institutions function, how our Constitution functions, and what our responsibilities as citizens are. 

However, the libertarian in me feels that it's wrong to compel someone to serve the state should they not wish to, for whatever reason that is.  I know one part of me thinks that if aimless youth were directed to some form of national service, it might give them some focus.  But if I were a section 2IC again, the last thing I would want are troops who do not want to be there.  My German friend told me horror stories about some of his fellow conscripts when he did his service.  One of them was the biggest drug dealer in the city, and was routinely selling drugs to his fellow conscripts.  I would like to think that our volunteer recruiting system is able to weed out more of the riff-raff, whereas mandatory service tends to direct riff-raff to the military in hopes of reforming them.  Again, were I a section 2IC again, I would not want any kind of criminal element in my section.

Again, my $0.02. 

I hear you on all your points and I am actually in agreement, except  - you're missing the one important point in my previous posting - it's fine (IMHO) to not want to "serve the state" - it's hypocritical to THEN expect that same state to satisfy your personal needs (protection, shelter, whatever).

If you are a member of a society - you can't ignore your responsibilities to it, and then "cherry pick" it's obligations to YOU.


Roy

 

[Roy Harding]

Mandatory national service could be a good idea, but let me disagree with you on a few points.

We work on average 4 to 5 months per year to pay all our taxes. Yup, to receive services like police services, Canadian Forces, Public safety programs, etc. In short, we work hard to pay the salaries of those who will come and help us when we need it. Paying taxes is a BIG participation to the common good (I'd much prefer sitting on my butt than working all those months if it weren't for the common good).

That's were mandatory national service could be helpful, in providing some cheap labor possibly helping the govs to lower taxes and at the same time give some good working experience and sense of duty to kids who just left school.

You're not educating me in any way regarding taxes - I'm well aware of what the personal tax bill is, in fact I think you've LOW-BALLED it a bit (as I recall - "tax freedom day" occurs sometime in late June/early July (I could be off a bit - but not much) - 6 months or more, as opposed to your estimate of 4 to 5 months.  And I understand (and appreciate) your contribution to the common good through your taxes (Amusingly enough, I make a similar contribution - as do most here).

I disagree, however, with your assessment of how National Service (military or non) might contribute to our society in general.  If hiring cheap labour to accomplish our aims overseas was an issue, then we could quickly solve it by hiring off-shore labour - I've seen this in action in Iraq and Dubai (we called these folks "Gilligans" in Iraq in the late '80s).  This is NOT the point (IMO) of National Service.

National Service (whilst, perhaps, a form of cheap labour) enables citizens of our country to actually PERSONALLY CONTRIBUTE to its' stated aims.  Whether digging a well, and establishing a functional water point in Africa, or fighting the Taliban in Afghanistan, it would enable our young citizens to understand where we fit in the "great scheme of things" world wide - and appreciate what we've got here - and we have one HELL of a lot to be thankful for.  I'm not sure that MOST Canadians, however, appreciate this fact - National Service may go a long way to alleviating this ignorance.


Roy

 

[Soldiers-wear.dk]

the danish army have mandatory conscription, but only for 4 months, if you want a contract and a tour to either, kosovo, afghanistan og iraq (they are pulling most of the troops home to august 2007) then you have to do training for further 8 months, wich is only about being a soldier and survive in the field and get all those reactions on you spine (mission orientated) and then you do a tour for 6 months and come home.

But only 4 month conscript is mandatory and womans are allowed.

ps
sorry for my rather bad english
i have been in the army 2 years now and done one 6-months tour in iraq

 

[3rd Herd]

i have been in the army 2 years now and done one 6-months tour in iraq

as with the others that have I understand had that country on their list of tours: congratulations 

 

[tomahawk6]

the danish army have mandatory conscription, but only for 4 months, if you want a contract and a tour to either, kosovo, afghanistan og iraq (they are pulling most of the troops home to august 2007) then you have to do training for further 8 months, wich is only about being a soldier and survive in the field and get all those reactions on you spine (mission orientated) and then you do a tour for 6 months and come home.

But only 4 month conscript is mandatory and womans are allowed.

ps
sorry for my rather bad english
i have been in the army 2 years now and done one 6-months tour in iraq

Welcome to the board.