The General Hillier Years. The Merged Superthread

[SeaKingTacco]

KevinB-

Secondly while I know that Navy has a high rate of deployment (and that is a given as part of a blue water Navy) what have the Airforce done?
Griffon - sorry it sucks unless you want to move one or two troops
CC130 - If we get the one or two workable ones airborne...
CC150 Polaris - Airbus's are not exactly STOL that you can launch an assault out of.
CF18 Hornet - now rusting out with not clear replacment.

Griffon- directed buy on orders of a former Defence Minister.   No military input accepted.
CC130- have been attempting to replace for several years.   Every C-17 and C-130J offer put in front of MND until last year- denied.
CC150- Air Force directed to buy these from nearly insolvent airline in order to keep it afloat.   No one claims they are tactical transports.
CF-18 upgrade progamme put in place because trying to get replacements from govt would have been a waste of staff effort.

You see the common thread emerging here?

Just because some of the equipment is crap, does not invalidate the MISSION that is being performed.  

Take fighters- if no fighters in CF, who exactly becomes responsible for the sovereignty of Canadian airspace?   Think carefully about your answer.   If you can't control something, it is difficult to argue sovereignty over it.

If we don't have subs or a blue water navy, I can virtually guarantee you that we will soon have someone else's subs or blue water Navy in our waters shortly.   How does that help us maintain sovereignty?

As for Op Apollo- you guys on the ground were kicking in the front door in Afghanistan while we closed the back door with the Canadian Navy in the Arabian Sea.   We all did good together.

Look my point here- the missions we do aren't all that wrong- the resources assigned are.   Not disagreeing with you on the small arms front.   If you say there is a problem, there probably is.   But, I'm in no hurry to lose anymore capability for the CF.   When is the last time anyone could honestly say that "Hey, you know, since we got rid of system X, we have just been rolling in the bucks to improve system Y"? I cannot think of single concrete example.

Anyway, let's see what the new CDS can make of this mess.

Cheers.

 

[Ex-Dragoon]

Very well said  and bang on from our view point as well Taco.

I also want to add that those that advocate the CF to become a niche role military are just like have the civilians on the street who expect the US to do all of the hard work in defending us. What should they or our allies pick up the slack for us? We don't have carriers or bomber aircraft but I think we can do for us and our allies is maintain the basics and if possible regain what we have lost or should have i.e Strategic airlift comes to mind.

 

[bossi]

Once upon a time ... (when LGen Belzile was just arriving as Comd FMC ...).
I heard the CDS of the day speak to the staff at FMC - he mentioned his "job interview" ...
(as a naive, young 2Lt I turned to my neighbour and asked "WTF" ...?)

Yes - there are also political considerations to this appointment (and, no - I'm not suggesting they picked a Newf in an attempt to settle the flag-lowering squabble ... however, as mentioned elsewhere - the Armed Forces of Newfoundland are mentioned, even enshrined via "grandfather clause" in the Constitution ... !)

At the end of the day, perhaps all we can hope for is that General Rick's heart is still in the same, right place as when I first met him at Staff College, when I met him again as Comd 2 CMBG during the Ice Storm, speaking to CFLCSC on his expriences as Comd MND(SW) ... and the employment/effect of Caribinieri on a rioting mob ... and lastly in Petawawa (i.e. that's what really counts, eh?)

Besides - We've already suffered under decades of "Truth, Duty, Valour, Don't Get Caught" ...
It's particularly appropriate today, to give "Provehito in Altum" a fair shake ...
(and, as also already mentioned:   This CDS deserves a vote of confidence if only for his bio - as Stirling said, "a sense of humour, a sense of humility ...").
Altissima quaeque flumina minimo sono labi

 

[ArmyRick]

I hear alot of people saying how we should maintain an all out war fighting capability, etc, etc.
Lets go over this one more time. Where are we going to get the money?
The Canadian majority (as much as I didn't agree with them) voted liberal. That means we get the lovely liberal defence attitude. We will not get hoards of money for defence. Period.
I would love to see an army with 3 divisions in place of three brigades (each division would have Heavy, medium and light brigade) with a very credible navy and air force. Yes it would be nice to see Leopard 2A5 with a maple leaf painted on the side.

However our defence budget is not 25 Billion dollars a year ( I can't remember the exact amount, something like 12 billion?).

Our government is coming out of a liberal party that was blatantly agaisnt defence spending (Chretein time) because of his "principles". We now have a new PM who on the front, seems to care more for defence than his predecessor. Hopefully thats true.

Also we have been told no tanks and aircraft carriers (That was used as an election promise).

So basically we have to get on with it using what gear we get.
We can all moan and groan about MGS, not having tanks, not having decent modern air fighter fleet, etc.

With General Hillier in charge, I have faith that we are heading in the right direction with what we have.

The present is soon to be the past. Lets get on with the mission.

Oh yeah, remember the past at election time and convert as many friends and relatives as you can...

 

[PPCLI Guy]

So basically we have to get on with it using what gear we get.
We can all moan and groan about MGS, not having tanks, not having decent modern air fighter fleet, etc.

With General Hillier in charge, I have faith that we are heading in the right direction with what we have.

The present is soon to be the past. Lets get on with the mission.

I agree with you wholeheartedly Armyrick.  While it is appropriate for us to make a case for more funding, and to plan and plot how we would spend that money if we ever got it, in the mean time we just have to get on with it, and ensure that the people get 13.5B worth of defence - and right now they aren't.

Dave

 

[Kirkhill]

I can only think that Armyrick and PPCLIguy have got it right.  Especially the line about remembering the next election - that is particularly true for us non-serving types.

Cheers.

 

[Love793]

The couple of times that I've met him, he seemed like a down to earth guy.  He was interested in the troops and our welfare,he actually wanted to hear the "No Sh*tter" answers, not the scripted ones.  Can't tell how he'll do as CDS.  After a couple of years of sensory deprivation in Ottawa he might change a bit. Only time will tell.

 

[STONEY]

Greetings to all you defeatests & nay- sayers.

To all those in uniform you should all fall on your swords if all you can aspire to is a 3rd rate military.

To all those Liberal bashers you have very short memories, when the Conservatives were  in power they too promised
a lot but delivered nada. The problem is not so much the parties themselves but the people in power running them. A u.s.  senator once said he was having problems getting military appropiations passed because only 40% of the house had military experience. A Canadian MP looked at him in amazement and replied , how do you think i feel , with .025% of Parliament with any military experience and a Defence Minister with 4 months in Boy Scouts and he quit because of harsh
conditions in the field.  Neither party seems to be able to push much through the ridiculously long military procurement process .  You can go through three different Governments during the process of getting a major piece of kit.

Lt.-Gen Hillier despite all his operational experience , is an amateur when it comes to dealing with the likes of Bob Fowler (the civie that really runs NDHQ) and his bureaucratic mafia. There have been many promising officers who headed to Ottawa with plans to change things and left broken men having  accomplished little of what they set out to do. I wish him luck.

To those wine that we can't afford this and can't afford that, bull. There is a country you know that is smaller than Canada, has a smaller population , has a smaller Armed Forces & smaller defence budget yet has managed to order new LAV'S, update old LAV'S, new Bushranger 4 X 4  APC's, new MBT'S, new Helicopter Gunships, new troop lift helo's, new anti tank missles & new rifles for the Army.  New Frigates, new Submarines, new helo's, 2 second hand rebuilt troop lift ships to tide them over until they can get newbuild flatop helo/amphibious assualt ships (planned). 3 new large Air-Defence Destroyers( in process of procurement), new coastal patrol vessels( under construction) , new Minesweepers, modernizing older Frigates, new fleet tanker (in progress)  , for the Navy.  New C-130J's , new AEW planes , upgrading MP aircraft, mordernizing F-18's (which were already a newer model than our CF-18's) , upgraded F-111 long range fighter/bombers, new HAWK lead in fighter trainers (similar to the ones Bombardier ownes & used to train CF pilots), new aerial tankers (planned) for the Air Force . This is probably not a complete list but you can see a trend here . Yes gents Australia , hardly known as a warmongering nation has managed to do this not in the last 30 years . but  the last 15 years or so. This leads one to question the efficiency of our leadership. 

Transformation indeed !!!  Transformation = Bull****.

Toodles  Stoney

 

[SeaKingTacco]

Bob Fowler is still in DND???

 

[291er]

Stoney,
FYI Bob Fowler is'nt with DND anymore and has'nt been for some years.  Ward Elcock is the DM now.....

 

[SeaKingTacco]

FYI Bob Fowler is'nt with DND anymore and has'nt been for some years.   Ward Elcock is the DM now.....

Whew...   I had flashbacks for a second.

 

[KevinB]

SeaKing - and Ex-Dragoon,

I am not saying the Navy and AirForce are has been trades - what I am saying is that the Griffon (thought it sucks) still flies and the Navy still floats - the Army is about to rust apart.

Or are the other elements just as badly off?

 

[FredDaHead]

SeaKing - and Ex-Dragoon,

I am not saying the Navy and AirForce are has been trades - what I am saying is that the Griffon (thought it sucks) still flies and the Navy still floats - the Army is about to rust apart.

Or are the other elements just as badly off?

Everyone's in the poo-poo. Of course, the armycentrist doctrine is prevalent so they'll get all the money, but I guess that's the way things are..

The Sea Kings are falling apart, and are barely flyable. Our warships were designed (and built) for the Cold War. We have early-generation fighters and in general our birds are way past their "best before" date. If our armed forces were milk, it'd have turned five shades of green by now and would classify as an alien lifeform.

The problem is, although the Army's equipment sucks, the only difference between them and the other elements is that they get the high profile. What I mean is, the media show troops on the ground doing stuff, but they barely (if ever) show the other elements doing important stuff. (Say, interdiction in the middle east)

Anyways, just my (currently) civvie 2 cents

 

[Ex-Dragoon]

Well Kevin look at it this way when we have to get parts from other ships to make ours deployable and put our working parts, crew, stores etc back on the ships coming on station getting ready to relieve us, I don't see how you feel the navy is much better off then the army.

 

[Slim]

A former commanding officer of mine (and still good friend) said not too long ago that the Liberals have turned the CF into a hood ornament for the Govt vehicle of state. Pointed out when required but not supposed to really do more than look nice and flash in the sun once in a while...

Truer words were never spoken!

Gen Hillier will probably head to the puzzle palace with visions of greatness...right up until he is forced to NEGOTIATE for his salary! Then he'll be brought into line with the current "policies"... Or be dismissed.

Its the Liberal way.

Slim

 

[Edward Campbell]

You're right, Slim.

Notwithstanding believing that Bob Fowler is still redecorating the Executive floor of Disneyland sur Rideau, STONEY, too, makes a valid point: governments provide the armed forces the nation demands.   Australia may not have the biggest or the best but they have managed to think about their national defence and to make some (mostly) smart decisions â “ not always the decisions the uniformed, military component wanted but decisions that worked.

It is important to remember (and I apologize if I am restating the obvious) that the Deputy Minister has a unique position in Ottawa.   Ward Elcock is not Bill Graham's assistant, he is Paul Martin's man in DND â “ he is Graham's alter ego but he reports to, is responsible to the Prime Minister â “ directly, just like all Deputy Ministers.   Sometimes (usually?) the DM is selected, by the PM, to balance the Minister â “ the two should not have the same weaknesses, etc.*   The DM, not the minister, deals with the centre (the Privy Council Office, Finance and, to a lesser but still important degree, Treasury Board) who manage the government's priorities on behalf of the PM.

Bob Fowler was a good DM.   People in and around DND, including Ministers and CDSs etc didn't like him â “ some actively hated him â “ but that didn't matter because neither the Minister of National Defence nor the Chief of the Defence Staff runs DND.   Fowler assembled a strong team which did the PM's bidding â “ serving both Tory and Liberal governments with equal ruthlessness.

----------

* Chrétien did well at this when he picked Himmelfarb to be his Deputy â “ the Clerk of the Privy Council: Chrétien was (is) an instinctive, gut feel politician, Himmelfarb is an airy-fairy policy wonk â “ good fit.   Martin screwed up by keeping Himmelfarb in place: they are both airy-fairy policy wonks: decisions are slow in coming and are overly nuanced â “ bad fit.   Graham (airy-fairy to the extreme and artsy-farsty to boot) and Elcock (bloody minded, bureaucratic tough guy who cares nothing for politicians, or soldiers, for that matter) might be a good fit, too.

 

[PPCLI Guy]

Greetings to all you defeatests & nay- sayers.

To all those in uniform you should all fall on your swords if all you can aspire to is a 3rd rate military.

Or tighten my sword belt, take a deep breath, and do my job - which is to defend Canada and her interests in accordance with the direction from the government.

 

[ArmyRick]

Stoney, from what I see, its been awhile since you were in the service?
Its not being defeatist or naysaying, etc, etc. Alot of has to do with the will of the Politicians.
Also comparing us to australia?
They have 6 infantry battalions Regular, we have nine
They have 1 tank regt and 2 Recce regts, we have three armoured regts
They have two artillery regts (reg), we have three plus air defence assets
They have two engineer regts (Reg), we have three CER plus an ESR
They 250 some odd ASLAV ? We have 650 LAVIII.

What I am getting at, is Aussies spend their defence dollars differently. You can go and on but what they have done, but so can the CF..
They also have their politicians they answer to as well.

Maybe if the CF reduced down to 2 brigades we could find all kinds of $$$ for extra kit.

But NDHQ, doesn't want 2 brigades, they want 3 and possibly our 4th in 5-20 years....

 

[Wizard of OZ]

Army rick

I think Stoney was saying that with a smaller budget they just spend it better not that their forces are better or bigger.  Just that they are better equiped with more modern equipment.

That is just how i read it though, i could be wrong it has happned before just ask Rusty. ;D

 

[Infanteer]

Bob Fowler was a good DM.   People in and around DND, including Ministers and CDSs etc didn't like him â “ some actively hated him â “ but that didn't matter because neither the Minister of National Defence nor the Chief of the Defence Staff runs DND.   Fowler assembled a strong team which did the PM's bidding â “ serving both Tory and Liberal governments with equal ruthlessness.

WHAT!!! But Scott Taylor's books said he's Doctor Evil!